Why are Warforged so bad?

[Vurt]

In certain circumstnaces, playing a warforged does decrease tension at no cost.

In other circumstances, playing a warforged dramatically increases tension without control.

Similarly, a giving a race a +10 bonus to all Will saving throws does decrease tension at no cost.

In other circumstnaces, giving that race a -10 penalty to all attack rolls will dramatically increase tension without control.

Y'see the problem yet?

Maybe.

But you're handwaving the "circumstances" away without really considering their frequency. An elf is immune to ghoul paralysis, but it's not really a problem because the situation is relatively rare. In some circumstances, playing an elf does decrease tension at no cost. But that doesn't mean the elf is "bad".

Similarly, by your other argument, if a race has a +10 bonus to Will saves and a -10 penalty to attack, immaterial of whether or not it's a playable mix, you can't say there is no cost.

The warforged race is a package. Deconstructing it line-by-line and comparing it with other races misses the point. One could easily look at a half-orc's darkvision, compare it to a human's lack in that regard, and say the half-orc is poorly balanced. But that is not the case. (Or that's not the reason for the case, if you're so inclined.)

"In certain circumstances, playing a *race* does decrease tension at no cost" is a true statement, immaterial of race, because one can always find the circumstances to fit the statement. It scans well, but it doesn't tell me anything in particular. And I haven't even asked "how much tension?" yet.

OK, how about I put it in different terms. In some circumstances the player of a warforged character is going to shine, because he will have the ability to be bold and stride purposefully forth to smite down the wight that has the rest of the party cowering behind him.

And in other circumstances he's going to wish he had a mommy to run crying home to when he's down to his last 10 hp, the hobgoblin barbarian in front of him just entered rage and raised his greataxe menacingly over his head, and the party cleric just ran out of cure moderate wounds.

In the first case, I don't see the reduction in tension as a bad thing. Just as the average adventuring party doesn't live in fear of commoners, the warforged isn't going to live in fear of energy-draining undead. That's not to say energy-draining undead can't still smack him silly in the usual fashion. In the second case, well, as an evil RBDM I can only cackle maniacally.

Still, how often each case comes up is totally at the discretion of the DM.

Where tension is variable, I think in both cases the drama is increased for the better. Both situations can be fun for both the DM and the players. And that's why I don't see the warforged race as written as being much of a problem in play.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[frankthedm]

Disease is a more important thing, because a DM could easily railroad PCs clear of some area by saying there's plague there, but aren't Paladins already immune?

The paladin is immune, Yes. A benifit of a class with enough RP baggage to be unplayable in some gaming groups. However the other PCs are not and the remove disease ability Paladins have is recharged weekly. The Paladin won't usually force the rest of the party into the situation where he runs out of remove disease while traveling through plauge riddled lands.

Besides, If the DM wants to railroad the party, The Paladin is usually the Conductor CHOO-CHOO!

 

[Seeten]

I hear a lot of, "But the group wont always have a Paladin" arguments.

The group wont always have a Warforged, either.

But nobody is crusading against Paladins DUE to immunity to disease. (Terrible RP based on lawful stupid alignment, yes)

Lets be real: I have played D&D for over 25 years, and I have been level drained exactly twice. I have never, ever been diseased, and I have been poisoned a handful of times, usually to have it neutralized or antidoted moments after. As far as benefits go, these ones are weak, and not often used, at least as big game breakers.

Any plot that can survive a Paladin can survive a Warforged, as far as I can see, their immunities seem pretty similar(high fort save, reallly high, subbing for poison immunity here)

 

[ARandomGod]

I'll agree with this insight 110%. The warforged should have a minor cost for this -- maybe no quadruple skill points at LV1? Maybe no feat at LV1? And in exchange they should get back their full healing and not be so obnoxious to run.

Ha!
I love that... because actually that's what they do pay. They get no feat at first level. Well, all with the exception of some builds that don't want a body X feat.

My first level warforged was great at first level. He had adamantine body and a tower shield... DR2 AC24... he was awesome. But he didn't have a feat, he just had armor (as it was necessary to give up that feat to get that armor).

It's actually not uncommon for players in my games to die 4-6 times by level 10, getting raised depending on wealth and whether or not the body is retreavable. Present game excluded, because one person has been sucking up all the deaths... (but what great deaths they have been - thank you 3.5 xp rules!) Thus, expecting a character you make at game start to make even level 10 is a fairly large assumption. Anything that helps that is well worth it, as when a character dies, you lose any contacts/patrons you might have had, special abilities, inherent bonuses, etc, and you have to start with a mostly standard character.

But the way 3.x is written you practically HAVE to plan your character to level 20 (or beyond, if you go there), or it'll eventually suck, becuase if you didn't plan from level one, you won't be able to get what you would want at level X (PrC's, feats, etcetera). You can't just go along. And, of course, we like to keep continuity, and if you're raised you're still playing the same character, so it's not to large an assumption that you'd make it to ten. And if you're just going to be switching characters out anyhow the entire conversation seems nearly completely moot to me...

 

[ARandomGod]

I hear a lot of, "But the group wont always have a Paladin" arguments.

The group wont always have a Warforged, either.

But nobody is crusading against Paladins DUE to immunity to disease. (Terrible RP based on lawful stupid alignment, yes)

Lets be real: I have played D&D for over 25 years, and I have been level drained exactly twice. I have never, ever been diseased, and I have been poisoned a handful of times, usually to have it neutralized or antidoted moments after. As far as benefits go, these ones are weak, and not often used, at least as big game breakers.

Any plot that can survive a Paladin can survive a Warforged, as far as I can see, their immunities seem pretty similar(high fort save, reallly high, subbing for poison immunity here)

Yea. Apparently, however, some games you can't get to level two without being drained three levels, and you're constantly throwing up more than you can eat, that is if you have enough strength to get to eat due to the poisoning you had last night. And, in those games, you betcha the warforged would be considered Uber.

heheheh

 

[Numion]

The paladin is immune, Yes. A benifit of a class with enough RP baggage to be unplayable in some gaming groups. However the other PCs are not and the remove disease ability Paladins have is recharged weekly. The Paladin won't usually force the rest of the party into the situation where he runs out of remove disease while traveling through plauge riddled lands.

Ditto for the Warforged. He cant force the group either. A game with all-forged group doing missions that assume the immunities would be cool though, just IMO.

It seems that people are evaluating the Warforged based on the condition that his immunities are in play already, while ignoring the frequency at which those situations arise. If poison, disease and starvation were as common as people here implicitly suggest, the meat PCs wouldn't stand a chance. Or at least, the game wouldn't be to my liking, but thats really just my preference and irrelevant to the argument.

 

[ARandomGod]

A game with all-forged group doing missions that assume the immunities would be cool though, just IMO.

I'd love to see an all warforged group. It could be very interesting.
Now if only they'd made the warforged scout an actual playable race, instead of the weakling horror that it is now.

 

[Seeten]

I wouldnt play a Warforged. Too weak. I'd be happy to play a changeling in Eberron, mayyyyybe a shifter, with convincing, but def a changeling, but I wouldnt touch a warforged with a 10 foot pole. -2 wis and -2cha? No thanks.

 

[ARandomGod]

I wouldnt play a Warforged. Too weak. I'd be happy to play a changeling in Eberron, mayyyyybe a shifter, with convincing, but def a changeling, but I wouldnt touch a warforged with a 10 foot pole. -2 wis and -2cha? No thanks.

I hear tell that a properly played shifter can really beat someone down hard and fast.

But I agree... it would be difficult to come up with enough different and interesting warforged character concepts to make an entire party. They're definitely a little 'below' what I'd personally want.

Still... a warforged barbarian would be interesting, taking all DR feats... and warforged monks are better than normal monks (not that "normal" monks are good at all... this almost brings them up to par). And warforged make nice artificers... If you stuck to those basic three concepts it could make a full party.

 

[ARandomGod]

I hear tell that a properly played shifter can really beat someone down hard and fast.

But I agree... it would be difficult to come up with enough different and interesting warforged character concepts to make an entire party. They're definitely a little 'below' what I'd personally want.

Still... a warforged barbarian would be interesting, taking all DR feats... and warforged monks are better than normal monks (not that "normal" monks are good at all... this almost brings them up to par). And warforged make nice artificers... If you stuck to those basic three concepts it could make a full party.

I wonder what other concepts would be *decent*