D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[radmod]

Or barding, I forget which. Close enough.

Ah. I was afraid I was using an old term. I still call Spiritual Weapon, Spiritual Hammer. Old habits, you know.

 

[radmod]

the real question is why is the wolf wearing armor? to make it tougher?

I meant the druid's wolf.
Now that I think of it, why not the bad guys? Don't have a Worg? Armor your pet wolf up. I've never really liked the idea of Orcs on Worgs. I've always thought one should be like "Dude, seriously, get off me or I'll easily beat the crap out of you."

 

[Hellzon]

I have no idea how this started, but now I want to play a dog.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I see an Awakening in your future...

 

[Nifft]

I meant the druid's wolf.
Now that I think of it, why not the bad guys? Don't have a Worg? Armor your pet wolf up. I've never really liked the idea of Orcs on Worgs. I've always thought one should be like "Dude, seriously, get off me or I'll easily beat the crap out of you."

In my game, goblins rode on worgs because the worgs needed hands for things like archery and grooming. The goblins were very much aware that they may sometimes sit on top of a worg, but they did not get to decide where the worg was going. They were the hands of the operation -- not the brains.

I have no idea how this started, but now I want to play a dog.

Play a level 5 Druid who acts like a dog.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

After he's Awakened, he can play a Druid who IS a dog...

It will be ruff, though.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, you're saying you want to be able to pick the Fighter's feats, but the Riding Dog shouldn't be allowed to trade Alertness for Weapon Focus.

Perhaps it was uncharitable of me to assume you wanted to limit the dog's choices in an attempt to win the argument. If I'm mistake, please accept my apology.

Let me ask you explicitly: why should the Riding Dog not be allowed to take Weapon Focus, like his brother Wolf did?

I already stated that. Again, primarily because the rules suggest that an animal companion is exactly like the MM entry. Secdonarily, because for simplicity's sake, I assumed stationary goalposts.

If you wish to insist that in this scenario the GM is generous, and you wish to state that Weapon Focus for the Riding Dog is our benchmark, we may proceed. The fighter still beats the tar out of the riding dog, unless you assume a fairly suboptimal fighter build and fairly favorable circumstances for the riding dog. I can see no other reasonable conclusion; the numbers have been posted all up and down the thread. Even "Regdar" can easily defeat a wolf in a fair fight. Dog Boy gives up 1 AC and 1 hit point and movement rate for much higher damage potential, the possibility of shield use, and a favorable (though not in all circumstances superior) tripping ability.

Assuming Dog Boy II has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Alertness, he now has better spot and listen. Using Combat Expertise, he can raise his AC to 16, matching the riding dog's. His attack bonus is now an effective +2, allowing him to make a touch attack vs. an AC of 12 (assuming not flat-footed) on a 10 or higher, 55% chance to hit. He gets +4 on his Str check to trip.

Foofles the Attack Riding Dog, attacking with a +4 bonus, needs a 12 or higher to hit an AC of 16, a 44% chance. If it hits, it can make a trip attempt with a +1 bonus on its check.

As you can see, even a knucklehead like Dog Boy can outperform a riding dog, even at its schtick. He also has a higher Spot and Listen bonus than the specially trained Riding Dog in this example (+4 each, compared to +3 for Foofles). Furthermore, he still has his bow, and if he meets a large opponent, he still has his sword and shield. It should, at this point, be sufficiently obvious that even at 1st level, even a combat-focused riding dog is no match for even a mediocre fighter with at least Str 14.

Foofles can, however, jump higher, run, faster, and yes, has the scent ability.

 

[Nifft]

I already stated that. Again, primarily because the rules suggest that an animal companion is exactly like the MM entry. Secdonarily, because for simplicity's sake, I assumed stationary goalposts.

Hey, I've been posting the Riding Dog explicitly with Weapon Focus since I brought it up to replace the Wolf. You can go back and look at my posts (and see that they haven't been edited).

and a favorable (though not in all circumstances superior) tripping ability.

The way Fighters trip is pretty good for tripping humanoids, but it sucks for other creatures, and it gives you three chances to fail before you're allowed to inflict damage.
- Touch attack (usually not hard).
- Strength check (often works on Medium and Small humanoids).
- Finally, you get to make an attack roll to deal damage.

In contrast, the Wolf and Riding Dog get to do damage every time they hit, and then they get a free trip chance after dealing damage. They don't need to roll three attacks to deal damage once, nor do they need to guess if an opponent is trip-vulnerable before attacking.

Assuming Dog Boy II has Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Alertness, he now has better spot and listen. Using Combat Expertise, he can raise his AC to 16, matching the riding dog's. His attack bonus is now an effective +2, allowing him to make a touch attack vs. an AC of 12 (assuming not flat-footed) on a 10 or higher, 55% chance to hit. He gets +4 on his Str check to trip.

Foofles the Attack Riding Dog, attacking with a +4 bonus, needs a 12 or higher to hit an AC of 16, a 44% chance. If it hits, it can make a trip attempt with a +1 bonus on its check.

As you can see, even a knucklehead like Dog Boy can outperform a riding dog, even at its schtick.

Ah, you're making a student mistake.

The Fighter gets to deal damage if he hits with the touch attack (.55) and succeeds on the strength check (let's say .75) and succeeds on the bonus attack (.45, same as the dog, since he gets a +2 vs. prone). He gets to roll damage 18.6% of the time, while the dog gets to roll damage 45% of the time.

Fighter's damage is 1d10+3 = 8.5, so his expected damage per round is 8.5 * .186 = 1.58 hp/round.

Dog's damage is 1d6+3 = 6.5, expected dpr is 6.5 * .45 = 2.925 hp/round.

Dog trips 60% of the time instead of 75% of the time, but he deals roughly double damage because his damage isn't contingent on the success of his trip check.

If the Fighter skips tripping entirely and just goes for the straight attack, he deals as much damage as the dog (.35 * 8.5 = 2.975).

Both parties should take Weapon Focus. Look at the Fighter's performance with it.

- - -

Fighters aren't good at tripping unless they get a Reach weapon and can lock down foes in an area with their AoOs. That kind of battlefield control is very strong.

Cheers, -- N

 

[grizzo]

Will the mods please stop the riding dog posts. They gone way off topic from my original post.

 

[Rel]

Will the mods please stop the riding dog posts. They gone way off topic from my original post.

You could instead politely request that folks focus a bit more on the initial topic. But maybe people are out of things to say about it. We generally don't enforce staying on topic unless people are being rude about it.