Why D&D is like pr0n

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Do not mistake anything on a message board as being representative of gamers as a whole. There's maybe a few thousand people who post on such venues, but the number of people who play RPGs regularly is probably closer to a million. So, the folks who post are a small fraction of the total body of gamers. They are not randomly chosen out of the mass, but are instead self-selected to be the types who will post in such venues, so aren't a good representative sample.

Sorry. Until you posted that, I was under the impression that anything posted on an internet forum was to be taken as unimpeachable fact.

Whilst I understand that forum traffic is not representative, I fail to see why heavy traffic in one area does not at the very least suggest an interest in one area, as might the preponderance of posts about preferred nature of games.

 

[IronWolf]

... forums like this are jam-packed with threads about exactly that - "more RP, less violence, please". How many threads are there asking how to bring in "more fighting and less roleplaying"?

I think you have to ask yourself about who is frequenting which particular forums are in question as well though. EN World seems to be frequented by a large number of DMs, so here you will see a large number of threads from DMs that talk about how they want their games to be.

Also keep in mind that if a DM is on a forum saying they wish their game was more RP and less bloodthirsty then likely their current game is towards the bloodthirsty side. No need to complain that one's game isn't bloodthirsty enough if the common DM complaint is just the opposite.

 

[Umbran]

Sorry. Until you posted that, I was under the impression that anything posted on an internet forum was to be taken as unimpeachable fact.

Sarcasm is perhaps not the best way to get your point across.

Whilst I understand that forum traffic is not representative, I fail to see why heavy traffic in one area does not at the very least suggest an interest in one area, as might the preponderance of posts about preferred nature of games.

Heavy traffic in one area suggests only that the people who are posting on that topic are interested in discussing the matter. It doesn't suggest that everyone else (or anyone else) is also interested, but denying it.

 

[Gimby]

There really isn't any dicotomy here.

Roleplaying your character (as in portraying their personality, goals and so on) is pretty much orthogonal to character optimisation. Whether my character has a +5 or +7 to hit has pretty much nothing to do with how likely they are to stand up and make a moving speech to the king.

Roleplaying is also something thats very hard to discuss in terms of quality or advice as its so very much more dependant on the gaming group and campaign than the mechanics. If someone posts up their character's backstory and personality on a gaming forum, they can't really get much in the way of advice about how to make it "better" as better is so subjective. Help in methods of coming up with these things in the first place? Sure, but thats something that only needs doing once and in general terms.

Mechanics on the other hand are much more amenable to forum discussion. The context is available to many more people and the precise details are laid out in front of you. The relative merits of the fighter-archer and the ranger-archer can be discussed (relatively) objectively.

Mechanics are also something that can be played with and discussed in isolation from the rest of the gaming group. The DM who wants a "roleplay-focussed" campaign may not know that thier players spend hours squeezing out the last +1 as that work isn't done at the table. As long as the character personalities are suitably deep for their desired game, does it matter that there is a char-op monster on the sheet? (assuming it's not Pun-Pun or similar)

 

[MarkB]

Nah, sorry. You just don't get it. Of course a 90% figure is made up -it's rhetoric, after all. But it doesn't change anything, and the accuracy of that isn't central to my assertion. It is absolutely self-evident on boards like enworld, that there is a strong body of players (DMs) banging on about exactly this subject - how much they like the rules-lite, combat-lite, RP/narrative game. Without looking, I'm sure there are at least 8 threads on the first two pages of this forum at any given time using this as a theme.

At the same time, there is very very little representation of the opposite case. I'm not performing a mathematical proof here - just an analogy.

What you're missing here is something fairly fundamental: People don't complain about things being the way they like them.

If 80% or so of RPG gaming consists of rules-heavy systems (whether that makes them RP-lite or not), then you're not going to get loads of DMs coming on the boards saying "I wish I could find players for my rules-heavy game" or "why can't I find any decent rules-heavy RPG systems to purchase?" - they already have the players and the game system they want, and are content, with no need to vocalise their concerns.

I disagree with your basic contention that rules-lite DMs are such an overwhelmingly vocal component either here or at conventions, but even to the small extent that it's true, the reason they're vocal is that they're the ones who aren't finding people to play with. The majority are happy in their gaming, and feel no need to pipe up with proclamations of "What really bugs me about the RPG industry today is that it provides me with exactly the sort of tools my players and I are looking for."

 

[Morrus]

Nah, sorry. You just don't get it. Of course a 90% figure is made up -it's rhetoric, after all. But it doesn't change anything, and the accuracy of that isn't central to my assertion. It is absolutely self-evident on boards like enworld, that there is a strong body of players (DMs) banging on about exactly this subject

You misunderstand me.

The types of people who post here do not mesh with my real life experiences. We have here a self-selecting sub-group of the whole; they are not representative in my experience.

You claim they seem representative in your real life experiences; I indicated that my own experiences were very different, and that your experience does not hold true everywhere.

Most people just play the game they like and don't complain about it. You hear a vocal minority, not the silent majority.

There's little point in posting to just say "I like things as they are." those people - the hhousands and thousands and thousands of visitors here who do not post - outweigh the posters many times over. So you hear that vocal minority who does like to post and say they like X or Y instead of the majority who just get on with thngs.

These people are the thousands posting on character optimization boards and the like. The very people you cited. They don't start threads such as "I like D&D the way it is" on D&D boards - they post character optimization and rules-related threads. They get on with talking about and playing the game. And they comprise far more than 10% of the traffic, as you yourself pointed out.

 

[Wepwawet]

Well I do watch pr0n regularly and have no problem admiting or talking about it, and gaming-wise I hate heavy roleplaying games. Some roleplaying is good, but too much is bad.
There, contributing to your "10%" figure

 

[Desdichado]

Nah, sorry. You just don't get it. Of course a 90% figure is made up -it's rhetoric, after all. But it doesn't change anything, and the accuracy of that isn't central to my assertion.

That's all fair enough.

It is absolutely self-evident on boards like enworld, that there is a strong body of players (DMs) banging on about exactly this subject - how much they like the rules-lite, combat-lite, RP/narrative game.

Except in your very next sentence your "argument" goes awry. Yeah, the 90% specifically doesn't make or break your argument. All of the other assumptions that you (falsely, IMO) believe to be self-evident certainly do, though.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I don't think it's as big an issue as you're making out. The DM is one person and in a group, majority rules. Individually they might prefer that style of game but adjusting to a player pool's desires is apart of DMing.

 

[Bagpuss]

It is absolutely self-evident on boards like enworld, that there is a strong body of players (DMs) banging on about exactly this subject - how much they like the rules-lite, combat-lite, RP/narrative game.

Me to, but I have to run a game for my players.... who like option-heavy (and therefore rule heavy) character design, and phat lewt from killing things.

Also note I attend conventions, none of my players do.

At the same time, there is very very little representation of the opposite case. I'm not performing a mathematical proof here - just an analogy.

Didn't you point out in your first post there was a whole board dedicated to character optimization, surely that representation of the opposite case.

Do you regularly view pornography?

I have access to the internet don't I? What a stupid question.