Why did they say Vancian magic would be gone?

[gribble]

What I've observed is that while it might be true that there is no need to stop adventuring because you're out of dailies, there is certainly a lot of incentive to.

As Asmor said upthread - if a party can rest after each encounter, they'd be foolish not to. Despite milestones giving the illusion of a benefit to pressing on - there actually is none (unless you've got more than 1/tier daily item that is superior to all your daily powers, or you have the ability to spend more than one AP per encounter and have been sandbagging APs).

Also, while healing surges are usually the main impetus for resting, it's less fun to press on without dailies - most of the really cool powers are the daily ones (conjurations, big damage, cool rider effects). This means players are more likely to want to stop, even when they don't have to.

In fact, the only reasons why parties in 4e don't rest between each encounter are external (i.e.: DM/adventure created complications) or machoism (i.e.: we're too tough to stop after one fight, lets press on). There's certainly nothing in the system that encourages/discourages it any more than earlier editions.

So, while it isn't technically necessary to stop when out of dailies, it certainly does influence when parties choose to call it a day, at least in the games I've played/run in.

 

[Crothian]

In fact, the only reasons why parties in 4e don't rest between each encounter are external (i.e.: DM/adventure created complications) or machoism (i.e.: we're too tough to stop after one fight, lets press on). There's certainly nothing in the system that encourages/discourages it any more than earlier editions.

This is a good thing. I don't want a system that tells me I have to have a certain number of encounters per day. I like it that the players can rest after one if they so choose or rest after twenty (which we have done). I like variety in my games and if we always had one encounter a day or twenty it would not be as enjoyable.

 

[Dedekind]

What I've observed is that while it might be true that there is no need to stop adventuring because you're out of dailies, there is certainly a lot of incentive to.

Given that the incentives exist, the anecdotal evidence given in this thread suggests it isn't a particularly strong one. I, too, add to the other comments that healing surges are the primary determinant of when we rest.

I grant, however, that a less hardcore rpg player might give a different response to this question.

 

[gribble]

Given that the incentives exist, the anecdotal evidence given in this thread suggests it isn't a particularly strong one.

I'm curious about this. It certainly is reasonably strong for my group. Given the 4e problems with grinding combats, we normally choose to stop and regain dailies if we can, because we've found the availability of daily powers makes a big difference in eliminating/reducing grinds. While having dailies aren't necessary, the game certainly seems a lot more fun when you do have them available to use.

So for those of you who do find your groups pushing on when your dailies are spent - why? Is it because of your DM's influence? Machoism? Something else?

 

[FireLance]

I think the key similarity between Vancian magic and 4e daily powers is that they can normally be used only once between extended rests. In that sense, Vancian magic is not totally gone from 4e, but as many others have commented, the scope of it has been significantly reduced.

As for encouraging the players to press on after expending dailies, what do you think of the idea of providing some advantage, perhaps a small bonus or a weak encounter ability, after he expends his daily? This would be something like an inversion of the reserve feats introduced late in 3e.

Alternatively (or in addition to the above), to give them an incentive not to expend all their dailies in the first couple of encounters after an extended rest, do you think it would be feasible to make the daily ability increase in power for each milestone the character has reached before he expends it?

 

[gribble]

As for encouraging the players to press on after expending dailies, what do you think of the idea of providing some advantage, perhaps a small bonus or a weak encounter ability, after he expends his daily? This would be something like an inversion of the reserve feats introduced late in 3e.

Nice idea. Perhaps something like +1 (or even +1/tier) damage to at-will (or encounter) powers for each daily expended?
Of course, I'm not quite sure how a spellcaster getting stronger as he "expends power" makes sense, but it'd certainly put paid to claims of Vancian magic!

 

[Crothian]

So for those of you who do find your groups pushing on when your dailies are spent - why? Is it because of your DM's influence? Machoism? Something else?

We don't push on like stopping is some great power we are resisting. We just continue until we really need to rest. The grind of combat is not something we have. Plus stopping after a single encounter just would never occur to our group, it's a ludicrous idea to us. We play a heroic game and resting after each encounter does not seem heroic to me at all.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

In terms of mechanics spellcasting in 3E and previous is similar to daily powers. Daily powers were also a significant part of 3E.

I think 4E has actually got the balance on this spot on. In the general scheme of things, the use of or saving of a daily provides enough spice to resource management without having it dominate to the point of the 15 minute working day.

There's quite a few things that irk me with 4E but as others have stated, this isn't one of them.

Best Regards
Sam

 

[LostSoul]

I used to think that Dailies were nice to have, they really help, but they didn't swing a combat all that much. If you don't have any Dailies, no big deal.

Then I played a Wizard in a one-shot last night. Those Daily powers... (Stinking Cloud and Flaming Sphere) I was amazed with the amount of damage and control I did with them. Without blowing both of them in that one encounter, we would have been toast!

Granted, it was my Wizard who turned one level 6 encounter into a level 10 one (and we only had 4 PCs, so I'm not sure what the real level was!), so I kind of owed it to the rest of the party...

 

[WalterKovacs]

From my experience:

(a) The end of the encounter day is based on healing resources first, daily powers are rarely the main issue.

(b) Players try to make sure their action point is used before the end of the second encounter, that their encounter powers are all used, but they also try to make sure they aren't just using them before they "lose them". Dailies on the other hand they wait for when they would best be used. This means there are times when it isn't useful to use them.

(c) It may be because of the presence of a tactical warlord, but dailies are often used with an action point, meaning that even with multiple dailies they don't all get used in a single encounter. We've just now reached 9th level in one campaign we're running, but even with only 2 dailies, they often get staggered over the course of the day.

When the daily gets used depends on the type. There are about 3 types of dailies. There is the "finish him" type daily which is mostly a lot of damage, and that gets used against something that has proven to have lots of hit points (and thus is probably an elite or solo). A lot can be that way, but especially ones that don't have much in the way of rider effects, or that have effects that only really help to bring down that particular character. Stuff like sleep (especially with the help of an orb) can fit in their as well, as a solo put to sleep can lose a lot of health in the one turn they are napping.

The second kind of daily is the "save our butts" daily, which are the various attacks that have healing riders (or saving throws). They generally get saved for late in an encounter when the healing is starting to get low (probably the 2 words have been used up, someone may be dropping, people are all getting low, etc) and it can give some good help in the HP deparment. This one is pretty much saved for the right moment. It might do enough damage to work as part of a nova, but it's much more useful if you wait for the right moment. Also, some that I know of and have in our group can only be used in response.

The third group are things that you want to drop ASAP because they have an encounter long effect (a lot of wizard stuff, just about any stance, zone, conjuration, rage, etc). In those ones, you just try to predict at the start of the encounter whether it needs a daily or not. I would guess once you get to level 9 you have enough dailies to be able to parcel them out over the course of a day, since you probably won't have too many encounters in a day. If you go with at most 1 daily per encounter, you'd probably have more encounters with dailies than otherwise as I doubt you'd be having 7 encounters in a day that often.

There are also some dailies that are a little weirder because they are reactionary, and depending on the triggering condition you may need to use them at the first opportunity, but regardless, they can't really contribute to a nova.

So, there are at least some daily powers (including utility and item powers) that you can't just use in the first encounter even if you try).

The PCs in general accept that they can't drop all their dailies in the first fight and go back to sleep. It's possible to do so, but then the DM may start doing things like having nighttime attacks, or upping the difficulty of individual encounters, etc ... It's basically an agreement between players and DM to not go on a 5-minute adventuring day, and the system allows for PCs, even without any remaining dailies, to continue on and not be completely outgunned.