Why do 4e combats grind?

[Jack7]

However if you injure most animals they will disengage and run at the first opportunity. They know serious wounds mean they could very well die by becoming crippled and therefore unable to hunt.

Not really. Non fatal Injuries tend to heal fast and clean in 4E settings.

I don't know if you mean that as a joke or not, but assuming you did, it made me laugh.

 

[frankthedm]

I don't know if you mean that as a joke or not, but assuming you did, it made me laugh.

IMHO the healing rate of 4E is The Joke. The post was serious though. You seemed to advocate animals behaving as in real life, even when the reason for the behaviors in question stem directly from how slowly one heals in real life. Indeed IMHO the aggression of a setting's fauna should increase with the speed of natural healing in the setting.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not sure why the focus here seems to be on the number of rounds. IME the grind I experienced was directly related to the passage of real time not rounds.

I suspect that for some people, lots of rounds translates directly into lots of time at the game table spend with combat. It depends on how fast people manage to handle their actions. If they spend too much time to make decisions or determining their attack and damage bonuses and total dice results, the number of rounds can become important.

IMHO the healing rate of 4E is The Joke. The post was serious though. You seemed to advocate animals behaving as in real life, even when the reason for the behaviors in question stem directly from how slowly one heals in real life. Indeed IMHO the aggression of a setting's fauna should increase with the speed of natural healing in the setting.

There is only a change in behavior f you treat the rules as "physics of the game world" and assume that in-game, animals and other creatures perceive the hit point healing the same way the game models it. But if the creatures in the game world don't recognize that all their chances to succeed exist only in discrete probability intervales that could be simulated with a d20, it stands to reason that the rules are probably not the physics...

But that's leading off-topic.

 

[gribble]

I'm not sure why the focus here seems to be on the number of rounds. IME the grind I experienced was directly related to the passage of real time not rounds.

Well, I thought I explained that already, but I've found it's much more related to the number of rounds than the elapsed time. For me grindspace is all about the combat becoming very "samey" and feeling that I just have to use at-wills/basic attacks to grind through the opponents hp.

I've found this correlates more to a combats duration in rounds than it's duration in real time (for reasons explained previously).

Is it frustrating and annoying when you have slow players/DM? Absolutely, but this is true whether the combat has turned into a grind or not, and (as far as I'm concerned) is a separate issue from the 4e grind.

 

[Dausuul]

...but in my short lived (1st-4th level) play experience, there would sometimes be a player who just could not sort out his powers and abilities in a timely manner.

I too have experienced this. I've seen people complaining about how their combat rounds (with a group of 5 players) take 15 minutes, and it boggles my mind. My group's combat rounds take about 6 minutes as a rule.

The key, to me, is to do your math ahead of time. I don't use power cards any more - I tried them, but decided they were more trouble than they were worth, and I'd rather be able to fit my character onto a single sheet - but for every power I have, I write down the attack bonus and the total damage on my character sheet next to the power name. Saves a ton of time.

Beyond this, I find that combat grind occurs when there are no more meaningful choices to be made. As soon as that happens, the whole thing settles into a slog. Once the PCs run out of encounter and daily powers (or expend all the daily powers they're willing to use on this fight), the chances of grind go way up; it is then incumbent on the DM to either end the fight quickly - e.g., the monsters run away - or ensure that there continue to be meaningful choices after the ones built into the system have been exhausted.

Player strategy is a big part of this. 4E is clearly built on the assumption that people will look for the best possible moment to use their encounter and daily powers, even if that means using at-wills for a couple of rounds at the start of the fight. That stretches out the span of time during which there are meaningful choices to be made.

However, a lot of players burn all their encounter powers right away and then have nothing left to do for the rest of the battle. IMO, this is a failure of game design. Tactical mistakes should be punished with defeat, not boredom.

I'm coming to the conclusion that it was a mistake for WotC not to include some way of recharging encounter powers during a fight. IMO, that would do a lot to prevent grinding. (Maybe one standard action to recharge one encounter power?) Or else have some sort of power-up mechanic that keeps people from "going nova" with their encounter powers.

 

[mach1.9pants]

...e.g., the monsters run away..

the problem with this is monsters running away tends to increase the combat rounds for me. the PC's aren't about to let them go and alert others, and the lack of ranged powers for the fighter (and the limited range of most of the cleric's powers) mean the DPS goes down.

 

[Dausuul]

the problem with this is monsters running away tends to increase the combat rounds for me. the PC's aren't about to let them go and alert others, and the lack of ranged powers for the fighter (and the limited range of most of the cleric's powers) mean the DPS goes down.

Yeah, that can be a problem. Of course, the monsters could also surrender (depending on the monsters in question).

 

[Cryptos]

I agree with most about poor tactics, how easy it is to focus on defense when the game seems balanced for offense, and other points. I think if you're making certain roleplaying or tactically defensive choices early on for your character so that you can establish what the character is or does from level one, you potentially get a front-loaded grind.

But you also don't generally have a lot of "win button" powers in 4e, either. Which is good, generally.

Sleep in previous editions meant the fight was essentially over if everything failed its save. Sleep in 4e is a momentary reprieve from having to fight everything at once, at best.

I sometimes wonder if they went too far in killing "save or die." Yes, literally "save or die" should be killed, but a 50-50 chance to end any given effect every round might be overkill in the other direction.

At the very least, it's a jarring change for some from "save or die" to "50-50 chance the effect is over in six seconds." I think the limited duration and scope of effects goes a long way towards the grind feeling some have as well as the "where has the magic gone" feeling others have. It's very balanced... but perhaps the scales are tipped more toward balance than "fun."

 

[Gadget]

It seems that there are multiple definitions of what constitutes a grind, from length of combat in round/real time to when the outcome is assured and it takes multiple rounds to 'finish it up'. I particularly like this one:

Beyond this, I find that combat grind occurs when there are no more meaningful choices to be made. As soon as that happens, the whole thing settles into a slog. Once the PCs run out of encounter and daily powers (or expend all the daily powers they're willing to use on this fight), the chances of grind go way up; it is then incumbent on the DM to either end the fight quickly - e.g., the monsters run away - or ensure that there continue to be meaningful choices after the ones built into the system have been exhausted.

This is probably the best definition yet. It seems to happen when the PC's are over matched, or have the combat in hand and the 'mop up' takes several pointless rounds. I've found that it can sometimes work better when I back off the mechanics a bit and become more descriptive in combat, try to do more role play in the midst of the and then find mechanics to match; page 42 and all that. But this only covers so much.

Player strategy is a big part of this. 4E is clearly built on the assumption that people will look for the best possible moment to use their encounter and daily powers, even if that means using at-wills for a couple of rounds at the start of the fight. That stretches out the span of time during which there are meaningful choices to be made.

This I think comes to the crux of the issue. I don't have as much experience as others but it boggles my mind that some people seem to just fire off their dailies/encounters until they run out and end up 'mashing' their at-wills in a 'grind'. I've heard the '4E is a video game' label before, but really? I mean some fights just run on and you run out of encounter/dailies, but if you're just shooting them off every round until they're out?

However, a lot of players burn all their encounter powers right away and then have nothing left to do for the rest of the battle. IMO, this is a failure of game design. Tactical mistakes should be punished with defeat, not boredom.

I'm coming to the conclusion that it was a mistake for WotC not to include some way of recharging encounter powers during a fight. IMO, that would do a lot to prevent grinding. (Maybe one standard action to recharge one encounter power?) Or else have some sort of power-up mechanic that keeps people from "going nova" with their encounter powers.

interesting...perhaps they found it was too easy to game the system this way. Isn't that the way BoNS worked? Were there exploits or other holes in the system that came out of that? Anyway, I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[LostSoul]

Good points, Dausuul.

However, a lot of players burn all their encounter powers right away and then have nothing left to do for the rest of the battle. IMO, this is a failure of game design. Tactical mistakes should be punished with defeat, not boredom.

I think that things should build up to a defeat. Not every encounter should dance on the razor's edge.

If tactical mistakes result in fewer Healing Surges, and those healing surges matter, then the players will still be making meaningful choices in combat.

How do you make Healing Surges matter? That's an issue with adventure design. (I would have preferred if there was some system-reinforced method that made Healing Surges matter, that made the choice to take a rest a hard one, but what are you going to do?)