Why do any prestige classes have weapon and armor proficiency?

[DreamChaser]

The title says it? Every Prc I've ever scene would have no reason to give new weapon training. They should either come into the class knowing the weapons or the class shouldn't worry about them at all.

Any one have any ideas?

DC

 

[Crothian]

Because all classes have these as abilities.

 

[Li Shenron]

If you are wondering why there is always a "proficiency" entry in th ePRCl description, it is for fair precision, in case the PrCl grants extra proficiencies at 1st level (for the ones who don't have them from the start).

If you are wondering why most of the PrCl published grant those proficiencies, when in your opinion they shouldn't, I agree that some (not all) of them really don't make much sense.
IIRC the Contemplative and the Divine Oracle give Simple Weapon and some Armor proficiencies: I have a hard time getting why a Wizard becoming DO have learned to use more weapons, I suppose that the DO divines and the Contamplative contemplates, and both don't practice much with weapons. The fact that both PrCl are aimed mostly at Clerics (but requirements don't imply you must have Cleric levels) is not an excuse, au contraire it's even worse, since Clerics already have those proficiencies.

 

[Ranger REG]

The title says it? Every Prc I've ever scene would have no reason to give new weapon training. They should either come into the class knowing the weapons or the class shouldn't worry about them at all.

Any one have any ideas?

Personally, I prefer combat-oriented prestige class to offer more weapon training, especially if noncombat classes like a wizard work so hard to become, say a cavalier. (Granted, it is not a prudent career path, but why deny them the opportunity?)

 

[fba827]

I have often thougth the same thing. In fact, almost all homebrew PrCs have that entry as "no additional weapon / armor proficiences gained"

However, as I started to type this response, I thought of _one_ possible reason.

A young (but poor) boy from the city is seen to have great reflexes, a good mind, and steady hand. (among other various requirements). However, given his low economic status, he has never been able to afford (and therefore train with) a composite long bow (or some other martial weapon).

A member of the King's royal guard spots this kid and notices the potential. Although he is untrained, the guard sponsers the kid into the elite group of guards.
He is accepted based on his potential (and meeting of other requirements). The first thing they do is teach him practice with various martial weapons and armor thus learning him that set of feats.


--
From another perspective, the same could be asked of wizard proficiences. The (sterotypical) mage is off being apprenticed to some big wizard in a tower learning from a book... yet, the day he is able to cast his first cantrip he is able to use a dagger and other such things with proficiency?
One could argue that for the core classes, the proficiency not only represents what they learn that day but also what they grew up learning/etc.

If you extend that logic to PrCs, you could say that during the course of doing whatever necessary to join said PrC, you also start to train yourself with weapons. And, upon joining the class, this training becomes "official" (yeah, I know, a stretch)

-----

Bottom line: while I do agree with you, I am just making a guess that it is there to catch the extreme cases of those who have the potential to be great with said weapon (and meet the prereqs) but never had the opportunity to formally train in said weapon (or armor, or whatever).

 

[Malicene]

I agree with fba827 example, and weapon/armor profeciency is revelant in this case : ie combat oriented PrCs.
Concerning Divine Oracle/Comtemplative and the like... I think designer wanted to use the same entries with every PrCs, that the only way this could happen IMO.
for if some PrCs did have profeciency entries it should be confusing too and thread should be " Why some PrCs don't have ..."

 

[DreamChaser]

My concern isn't with the entry. I get that part. Some gamers turn a mispelled word or changed word order into the new reason that the game is nerfed/broken/got the shaft/etc. So I get the avoiding confusion thing.

But what I don't get is the once where they would not train in weapons or should already have their weapon training out of the way to get into the prc

The arcane archer must already know the bow and know it well (a human wizard could do it by 6th level but would have to wait until 12th for the BAB). Yet still they are trained in simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor and shields. Because??? If the wizard managed to qualify for the arcane archers w/o levels in a fighting class to grant these anyway, why would the archers say "you must learn to wear this armor that you've never used and will interfere with your spellcasting and these weapons that you'll never use anyway"

I don't get it.

DC

 

[Henry]

It's six of one versus a half-dozen of another. Either they learn it before they qualify, or after, the affect is the same that they have those proficiencies by the time they are a full-fledged member.

Technically, if the PrC is a special Order, or fraternity/sorority of some sort, then they don't necessarily need every single proficiency already to enter - just the potential, which the requirements represent.

In this case, a wizard has fought hard for the king, and he has the requisite valor and heart to be his direct servant, then the knightly prestige class he wishes to join will accept him, and will also train him in those things which are expected of him, though not considered important enough to bar him entry (such as proficiency in smaller weapons that he never took, etc.)'

However, I could easily see it the other way, too, listing all weapon and armor prof's as requirements, instead of benefits.

 

[DreamChaser]

It's six of one versus a half-dozen of another. Either they learn it before they qualify, or after, the affect is the same that they have those proficiencies by the time they are a full-fledged member.

Technically, if the PrC is a special Order, or fraternity/sorority of some sort, then they don't necessarily need every single proficiency already to enter - just the potential, which the requirements represent.

Most of the time, the prereqs are either laughable (mystic theurge for example) or they are everything the class needs (lasher's need whip stuff, arcane archer needs bow stuff).

I guess I understand the idea...but it just seems silly to me, except in extenuating circumstances, for an advanced group to think:

"hmmm, that person seems graceful, like they might be good at combat if we only trained them. sure they're a wizard but they have some pretty good combat instincts. It should only take us a year or so ignoring other, better trained candidates to turn him into one of us."

thanks for the responses, everyone.
DC