Why Do Batman Fans Hate Christopher Nolan?

[Tequila Sunrise]

I have a confession to make: I love CN's Batman trilogy. It's got continuity, memorable villains, and Hans Zimmer. The only other Batman flick that sticks out in my mind is Batman Returns...and I think CN's trilogy still wins out as my preference.


But I'm told that CN left several plot holes. And he apparently has a conservative take on Batman's capabilities, which kind of boggles my mind -- if Christian Bale plays a powered-down Batman, what does a powered-up Batman look like?!


Obviously I've never read a Batman comic.


So I'm curious: What are these plot holes, and why all the apparent hate?

 

[billd91]

I have a confession to make: I love CN's Batman trilogy. It's got continuity, memorable villains, and Hans Zimmer. The only other Batman flick that sticks out in my mind is Batman Returns...and I think CN's trilogy still wins out as my preference.

But I'm told that CN left several plot holes. And he apparently has a conservative take on Batman's capabilities, which kind of boggles my mind -- if Christian Bale plays a powered-down Batman, what does a powered-up Batman look like?!

Obviously I've never read a Batman comic.

So I'm curious: What are these plot holes, and why all the apparent hate?

You liked Barman Returns?!? Ugh. I'll take Nolan's Batman movies over Burton's any day, even with that stupid Barman voice they came up with.

 

[horacethegrey]

I don't hate Christopher Nolan.

Then again, I'm not much of a Batman fan nowadays. But I give the man credit for giving us the best cinematic interpretation of the Dark Knight in like forever. Unlike Burton's offbeat and weird direction or Joel Schumacher's campyness, Nolan gave us a take grounded in the real world mired in darkness. He and Christian Bale also made Bruce Wayne a compelling character, unlike Burton or Schumacher. Not to say he skimped on the villains, because they're among the best comic book villains to appear on film (particularly Heath Ledger's Joker and Tom Hardy's Bane).

That said, I do find him highly overrated as well. His dialogue can get incredibly pretentious and his action scenes can be somewhat lacking (not the vehicle stuff though, love the scenes with the Tumbler).

Batman fans should be happy at Christopher Nolan for keeping the Dark Knight alive in the public eye.

 

[frogimus]

They have worn the paint off Batman, Spiderman, and Superman. Anytime I see a movie teased for any of these IPs it just shows that Hollywood has very little imagination.

Redbox only, if I'm even tempted to see it.

 

[Celebrim]

Since I seem to be the one that provoked the question, and since I'm bowing out of the thread that seems likely to challenge 'Do Alignments Improve...' for most wasted verbiage, I might as well answer you.

I actually don't hate Christopher Nolan per se, but I do find it to be largely a triumph of style over substance. I also think that a lot of the praise heaped on the movies stem more from what it isn't rather than what it is - it isn't a campy take on the material in style of the old Batman TV serials or the Tim Burton movies. I think that change and shift to seriousness garnered Nolan a lot of credit from fans that were seriously tired of their favorite superhero being treated like a joke character.

But in terms of actually find them good, no, I don't find them good. I find them highly overrated. I found the situations and plots to be highly contrived and often illogical. I thought the movies were poorly paced with just too much material crammed into the movie, too many villains, too little focus and character development, and way too much 'darker and edgier' for its own sake. In many ways, none of the movies significantly improve over the Tim Burton crap and make almost all the same mistakes. Batman Begins gives us both Ra's Al Ghul and The Scarecrow - both of which could fill up a movie on their own - on top of trying to do protagonist origins exposition. The movie doesn't even really get started until 53 minutes into it, and then it has to resolve an overly complex plot involving two villains each of which also has to be introduced. Why?!?!? Who thought that was a good idea? The Dark Knight gives us both the Joker and Two Face, each of which could carry a movie. Why does a batman movie need 2-3 villains in every movie anyway? No other superhero movie seems to need to be so unfocused.

And I found Heath Ledger to be absolutely terrible as the Joker, although it part because the part was written so badly. The joker is supposed to be actually charming, entertaining and funny - which is supposed to act in contrast to his complete brutality and disregard for life. He got maybe one joke in the entire movie. Mark Hamil is the only actor who has ever 'got' the joker and been given appropriate script to read for the character. Ironically, I think I would have liked the Tim Burton casting better if they'd reversed some of it: Jim Carrey playing the irrepressible wildly over the top Joker, and Jack Nicholson as the prim, proper and yet explosively psychotic Riddler. You need a comedian in one and a dramatic actor in the other, and they just got it wrong.

But, there are a couple of good scenes in each movie that save it from being utter crap. In particular, The Dark Knight is almost redeemed in a single scene when the prisoner says, "I'm going to do what you should have done from the start..." That's a really well written scene in the midst of an otherwise tedious movie.

But I was overall so disappointed by second movie I didn't even bother to watch the third.

 

[trappedslider]

WoW..thats the frist person I've come arvoss that didn't like the TDK trio....many of the praises i have heard are due to the fact that Nolan wove in a number of different comic story lines to make each movie :

• Begins - Batman: Year One (Bruce's origin mirrors that particular version, Commissioner Loeb, Carmine Falcone, Detective Flass), The Long Halloween (the idea of Batman, the police, and the DA's office presenting a united front; Scarecrow's appearance; Carmine Falcone's downfall), andContagion (Ra's Al Ghul tries to spread a plague across Gotham). The Man Who Falls was also cited as an influence.
• Dark Knight - The Killing Joke (Joker tries to make someone go crazy, Joker's multiple origins), The Long Halloween (Dent gets disfigured and goes on a rampage, supervillains begin to take over the mob's place), Dark Victory (Commissioner Loeb dies), Batman: Year One (Gordon's family put at risk in the end), and Joker's original story from Batman #1/The Man Who Laughs (Joker arrives in Gotham and starts killing people). According to Steve Englehart, Nolan also cannibalised elements of Dark Detective and its unpublished sequel
• Rises - Vengeance of Bane (Bane's origin is used for Talia, King Snake is substituted for Ra's) Knightfall (Bane shows up and breaks Batman's back),The Dark Knight Returns (an older Batman comes back to fight crime, Gotham is under a nuclear threat, Batman fakes his death), Son of the Demon(Batman gets involved with Talia Al Ghul), No Man's Land (Gotham gets blocked off from the rest of the US and declared a disaster area), Legacy (Bane and Talia working together), The Cult (An underground group of criminals take over Gotham, Gordon is put in the hospital as a result of trying to confront them), again, Batman: Year One (Catwoman's origins). There might also be a subtle inclusion of Batman Beyond (A younger man prepped to take Batman's mantle after he resigns towards the end).

 

[Morrus]

They don't hate them. The Nolan Batman movies are extremely popular. Two of them made over a billion dollars. I enjoy all three immensely. They're as good, if not better in some ways, than the Marvel offerings.

At a guess, I'd say if you cast your net a little wider, you'd run across a more representative sample. Heck, in a thread over in General, I discovered that I was the only person in the world with a smartphone - which is probably news to Apple! Just goes to show that you have to be careful how you gather your data.

 

[sabrinathecat]

Go to Youtube. Look up "Everything Wrong With" and find the entries for the movies.

Problems: Casting
Bale cannot project emotion. He's worse than Kurt Russel (who can do emotion, but usually chooses not to). I haven't seen Bale express anything like a real emotion since Reign of Fire. He seem to specifically pick characters that are emotionally repressed.
Michael Caine is a great actor, but Alfred is NOT supposed to be that snarky.
Then made a big deal about the Japanese actors to play Raz al Ghul, but it was obvious from the very beginning that he was not going to be the villain, because he wasn't threatening.

Villains:
Raz al Ghul is supposed to be pronounced "Raish".
His plot and motivations are only thinly glossed over. The actual plan is idiotic and flawed.
ScareCrow is more of a comedy side-kick than a serious threat.
Joker is an insanely clever gangster (still all about the money), not an agent of chaos.
Bane is just about nothing like as depicted.
Catwoman is just about nothing like as depicted (even though she was the best part of the 3rd movie)

While there was a lot of potential, the first movie was unsatisfying, the second one was only successful due to Heath Ledger, and completely hinged on him, and the third one was just dumb.

Tim Burton's first Batman movie brought us the Bruce Timm cartoon, which brought us Superman: The Animated Series, which brought us Batman: Beyond, which brought us Justice League, which brought us JLU. Nolan's version brought us... Brave and the Bold? maybe? No, not even that.

I am far more impressed with the overall quality of Burton's version and vision that Nolan's. Aside from the CGI, Burton's was superior in every respect.

Like Lost, or Twin Peaks, Nolan's version is very much flavor of the moment, winning temporary acclaim, but a decade later I doubt it will be more than a footnote in most people's minds.

 

[Viking Bastard]

Yeah, while there's the occasional Nolan-Batman-hater, I think that the Nolan movies are overwhelmingly loved by Batfans. DKR perhaps more controversial than the other two.

For one, it's the cinematic version of Batman that's truest to the (modern) comics. The movies are pretty much cobbled together from some of Batman's most popular storylines.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I was (unlike with the rest of this comic book stuff) actually a fan of the Batman, particularly The Dark Knight Returns. Nolan did an excellent job of creating tone and I find his version an entirely worthwhoile reinvention of a myth that gets redone periodically. The movies are not without flaw, and the third one was really a disappointment, but I'd hardly say that Batfan equals Nolan hater.