Why do elves pick on goblins?

[Warren Okuma]

4E - Why do elves pick on goblins?

Because they are not one of the popular races and are physically unattractive to the Elves.

 

[Orius]

Goblins are whatever the DM wants them to be, and without having to house rule things, goblins with classes are just as deadly as most other races with classes. Sure, the goblin mooks that simply guard the warren entrance may be a pushover, but the elite tunnel-crawlers, who draw enemies into quarters too small for them and then strike, are another matter. And what about the worg-riders, trained to fight from the saddle of their lupine mounts, or the night fangs, the goblin rogues and rangers that ambush elves in the wild and sneak into elven villages? Or the priests of Maglubiyet, empowered by their god to greater prowess? Or the war-chief and his elite guard, skilled enough to take down giants through teamwork and tactics?

Goblins can be whatever the DM is creative enough to make them.

Exactly, my goblins are always nasty. A favorite 3e tactic of mine is to use a goblin cleric with the Trickery domain, who casts invisibility on his rogue buddy. Then the rogue walks up to the most likely target and sneak attacks him.

I TPKed a 4th level party with goblins, because they got overconfident. The fighter waded into a bunch of mooks, the cleric cast hold person on him (my goblins have a LOT of clerics of Maglubiyet ), and the mooks nickeled and dimed him to death. And the other party members were too busy trying (and failing) to take out the rogue to help him.

This was after they got past the part of the lair where the goblins had half a dozen crossbowmen behind murder holes as a backup for their dozen main guards.

 

[KingCrab]

Does it mention if the goblins have hobgoblin and bugbear companions?

 

[Aus_Snow]

The goblins I last used were nasty little bastards, modified somewhat from core gobboes. But some of it was the way I ran them - cautious, cunning, aware of environmental factors as a tactical advantage, and cruel - so yes, I'd agree that a fair amount of their effectiveness is down to how a DM chooses to use monsters (e.g., goblins.)

 

[Warren Okuma]

The the question is in some campaigns wrong. It's why are the Goblins picking on the Elves... and it's because they can.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Phallus envy.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, dragons pick on giants, who pick on ogres, who ......... who pick on elves, who pick on goblins.

And that is it. Nothing weaker for the goblins to pick on!!!

 

[Vocenoctum]

Realistic? About a fantasy race?

About a fantasy race in a game which defines elements with numerical values.

Statistically, goblins are weaker than elves.

Goblins are whatever the DM wants them to be,<snip>

Goblins can be whatever the DM is creative enough to make them.

This applies equally well to all races. If you make goblins genius and devious and that ravage the landscape with a sense of purpose and leadership capable of pushing that forward, then you should also apply the same to the elves.

If you wish to elevate one race while making the elves tree-hugging hippies incapable of wielding a sword they're proficient in, than it's sort of pointless to discuss their capabilities in any real sense. Goblins can be whatever you want them to be, elves can be whatever you want them to be. Dragons, also, can be whatever you want them to be. It's a bit of a non-start.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The 4E description is definately going in the opposite direction as before. Now the elves are on the offensive. Is this a good thing? Elves picking on goblins now that goblins are so incredibly weak as it is? Couldn't they have picked a "real" monster in this day and age? Goblin adventures are barely suitable for a 1st level character, much less as a campaign theme for an entire race. (rant off)

jh

Alignment will be minimized in 4e, I think, so perhaps things will change. In previous editions, goblins had the advantage of numbers and a breeding rate, while elves had personal power without numbers. Elves would hate goblins for the same reason dwarves and elves made war in Red Box, the dwarves don't care about the harm they do to the environment, the elves do.

Goblins might kill lots of things for amusement, and probably do not farm or raise livestock. The ruin they leave behind them is probably more harmful than the damage they deal in combat.

Plus, goblins are ugly, they deserve to die!

 

[shilsen]

About a fantasy race in a game which defines elements with numerical values.

Statistically, goblins are weaker than elves.

Which is not something I was disputing.

That being said, if you look at the stats for the goblin and the elf in the 3.5e MM, the elf is barely superior. The goblin actually has more hit pts, has better Hide and Move Silently scores, and has exactly the same AC and attack bonuses. The elf's only real advantages are in using medium-sized weapons that do more damage than the goblin's smaller ones. At night, with the 60' darkvision, the goblin is far superior to the elf.

This applies equally well to all races. If you make goblins genius and devious and that ravage the landscape with a sense of purpose and leadership capable of pushing that forward, then you should also apply the same to the elves.

If you wish to elevate one race while making the elves tree-hugging hippies incapable of wielding a sword they're proficient in, than it's sort of pointless to discuss their capabilities in any real sense. Goblins can be whatever you want them to be, elves can be whatever you want them to be. Dragons, also, can be whatever you want them to be. It's a bit of a non-start.

Again, this has little to do with what I was posting about. I was responding specifically to Emirikol's original post and the assertions that "goblins are so incredibly weak as it is" and that "Goblin adventures are barely suitable for a 1st level character, much less as a campaign theme for an entire race." I was illustrating that goblins don't have to be "incredibly weak" and can be a threat across a wide span of levels. And, as I pointed out above in this post, they aren't that much weaker than elves.