Why do elves sleep now?

[an_idol_mind]

Reading through the rulebook, the spell description for Nightmare states that, "Creatures that don't sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell."

While that will probably get errated out in a later printing, there is still the barest of hints that elves don't sleep, for those who need to have a rules precedent in order to include it in a game.

 

[Banshee16]

I always had a hard time trying to figure out why elves didn't sleep in the last three editions. Ever since the Basic Rules, I have always interpreted the "immune to sleep spells" rule as exactly that: they still slept like everyone else, they just couldn't be put to sleep artificially. Sort of like how a creatures that is immune to charm effects can still be your friend...it just can't be magically tricked into it.

It might not be "by the book," but it works for us.

I have no problem with elves not sleeping. Even in the animal kingdom, different types of animals sleep for different lengths of time.....some, such as cats, sleep more, and others such as the giraffe sleep less than 2 hrs. And some still function even while sleeping (ie. dolphin). So there's all kind of variety.

I always felt the lack of sleep thing kind of separated them from humans, and established their alien nature.

Banshee

 

[Truth Seeker]

That was always a very inmportant distinction to me...

I have no problem with elves not sleeping. Even in the animal kingdom, different types of animals sleep for different lengths of time.....some, such as cats, sleep more, and others such as the giraffe sleep less than 2 hrs. And some still function even while sleeping (ie. dolphin). So there's all kind of variety.

I always felt the lack of sleep thing kind of separated them from humans, and established their alien nature.

Banshee

 

[Set]

Hmmm, if that is the case, it would be soundly defeat the purpose of resisting magical sleep effect magik.

Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally. It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.

I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis. A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.

 

[Truth Seeker]

Understood in both points, and thanks for bringing up the ghoul part, did forget about that.

But bare with me here. The morale of this, is thus...the constance perception of the message.

Seeing what is said (supposedly) about the 'sleeping' factor on Elves. Is one thing. But then seeing something else stated, (likely opposite to that first message), seems totally opposite in meaning.

Likely, that can lead to confusion.

We the older breed, know the differences, but to someone who is not old, and may be just barely new to the material. Will note the 'confliction' and asked the necessary questions to get clarity.

As seen thoughtout this thread, everyone has different take on it, me...I just advanced it to the next level. On a possible scenario that will lead to that 'change'.

I have noted that for a while now, even to the point, in the past splat books on the races, 3rd Ed or 3.5 ED, at one point, they reduce the birthrate to human time, 9 months, instead of 2 years (yeah, FR reference, or older edition).

But that is beside the point, the overall message that needs to said, that if you put such changes on a race's specific function (their natural abilities), but don't put the explaination on why.

Then have another section of texts, that implies that they still do 'retain' that not mentioned natural ability.

It will lead to small head scrathcing between DM and player. Which can lead to possible conflicting of views on what is suppose to be what...down the road.

In short, be concise, be constant, from the beginning, the middle, and end, to what is said about anything, especially when it comes to the overall view, on what can be done, by any said race.

We, this gerenation, are in the information age, so...it is as vitality important to make sure all factors are what they suppose to be, all connected supplements match the original message as well.

If not...this thread serves as an example, to what can occur.

Peace.

Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally. It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.

I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis. A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.

 

[Xendria]

I personally enjoyed the fact of elves not sleeping, but I altered it back in 3rd ed for my personal campaigns so that they trance for 8 hours and that the can still be affected by nightmares and prophetic dreams alike. I give them a bonus save to things like nightmare cause it is not exactly sleeping, but they still dream. My players came to this compromise because 3 of them are zookeepers and we had the whole "dolphin sleeps but still functions" conversation and decided that elves would indeed dream and have sleep like brain activity but wouldn't slumber as humans.

Another reason is it does indeed make them different from the more mortal of the races. We also have fey do the same thing.

 

[diaglo]

Elves were immune to sleep spells in 1st edition, and slept normally. It wasn't until the Complete Book of Elves (which was an abomination like few others) that the concept of trance entered the game, and only the Forgotten Realms setting embraced the concept.

I see no conflict with a race being immune to magical attempts to force them to sleep, and still being able to sleep by choice, just as 1st edition elves could be paralyzed, but were immune to ghoul paralysis. A specific exemption doesn't lead to a general rule.

it could also be traced back to their Chainmail (1971) origins. elves, of course, are faeries.

the magical sleep being one key for faeries in the mass combat. put your enemy to sleep but not yourselves.

as faeries became elves for OD&D(1974) and later editions it stuck or was kept.

perhaps the origin of which was not checked by the writers of the Complete book of elf crapola. 2ed

edit: elves do sleep. they eat. they poo. they do all normal bodily functions.

 

[Dross]

edit: elves do sleep. they eat. they poo. they do all normal bodily functions.

20 years in diapers, according to Vaarsuvius of Order of the Stick fame (On the origin of the Pcs)

 

[Banshee16]

Understood in both points, and thanks for bringing up the ghoul part, did forget about that.

But bare with me here. The morale of this, is thus...the constance perception of the message.

Seeing what is said (supposedly) about the 'sleeping' factor on Elves. Is one thing. But then seeing something else stated, (likely opposite to that first message), seems totally opposite in meaning.

Likely, that can lead to confusion.

We the older breed, know the differences, but to someone who is not old, and may be just barely new to the material. Will note the 'confliction' and asked the necessary questions to get clarity.

Another discrepancy is lifespan.....though Paizo had the courage to change the height/weight statistics for elves, they didn't change the lifespan....it's still 350+4d100. Yes, Elves of Golarion mentions that elves can live upwards of 12 centuries. Now, unless you can get a "critical hit" when rolling that 4d100, something with that math just doesn't add up

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

20 years in diapers, according to Vaarsuvius of Order of the Stick fame (On the origin of the Pcs)

According to Races of the Wild, Otherlands, and several other sources, that's not quite right. Elves age at about the same rate as humans until about 15 years old. Then, their aging slows down, and they take about another 20 years to do the final equivalent of aging from 15-20 in a human.

Now......biological and social adulthood are two different things. Even looking at our own society, you see many people not really leaving home and breaking out on their own as adults until they are 25+ because of the length of time spent in advanced schooling. Historically, people were sometimes considered adults around 15. Elves might biologically be considered adults by 35 or 40....but in their society, they're not considered adults until 100.

That makes a lot more sense.....sort of like how in dogs, their lifespan is measured as 1 year equals 7, until they hit adulthood, but once they've grown, it slows to about 1 year equaling 5.

Banshee