Why does epic level play entail treating death as a "speed bump"?

[WhatGravitas]

Yes, that's how it was in 3E, and that's how it was done in the past. Version 4 has changed the way many things had been done before (static hit points, etc.). Why didn't they change this as well?

To expand on that: It's most likely there, because it was and will remain a part of the "D&D experience". 4E breaks mechanical continuity, as well as story continuity. But they try to capture the "D&D feel". I think resurrection became a very part of that - people in D&D tend to assume that there is a way to cheat death. Hence they kept it - because it is part of the feel of D&D.

Of course, we could argue, what makes D&D D&D, but that's a can of worms.

Cheers, LT.

 

[abeattie]

I can accept heroes wielding extraordinary powers and even challenging the gods, but the "death as a speedbump" idea just seems silly. I have not found it in any real world folklore and mythology or fantasy liteature. The only place I have seen such an idea is in console role-playing games (where you give a fallen party member a pheonix down in the middle of battle). Even console games, however, often try to work around that idea by declaring fallen party members are really just "unconscious".

Well -- modern fantasy brings us "Neo" who self-rezzes.

3.5 had True Resurrection (speedbump you say? What bump?)

Mythologically, there is the phoenix, and the many many men and demi-gods that walked / fought / tricked their way out of hades.

However -- I think that we've heard that the limiter on raise dead was having "a destiny," essentially unfinished buisiness. We have plenty of experience with movies and fantasy where the hero dies, goes to heave, meets with god/loved ones/old mentor, who says "here is your information, now, you have work left to do, so go!" and then they whoop ass.

2c

 

[xAndurilx]

If you don't want to change the rules, redefine death. Say that, at Epic level, you can hang on a few extra rounds after you should have died, so that the instant-raise powers still work.
Give the PCs the 'Blessing of the Death God', that Death grants some leeway before collecting their souls because they did a favour for him (or because that way they'll kill many others).
Change how you look at conditions, and that may help you wrap your brain around the rules.
Or not. It's worth a try, though.

For raising later on, via ritual, this won't work obviously.

--Penn

Bullseye!

 

[Green Knight]

I would like to play in a game that emulates myths and legends of old. Heroes would wield extraordinary powers, but even they would have a reason to think twice about dying. Will it be possible to play this type of game in 4e? I'm not talking about stopping at the "paragon tier"; I would like a truly epic game, but one where death is not treated as a mere speedbump.

Certainly it's possible. The phrase is, after all, "Once per day, when you die...". Once per day. Kill 'em twice and they're dead, dead, dead.

Besides, this isn't unique to D&D. Just check out Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

The Green Knight gets decapitated, picks up his head, says a few words, and rides off. Death for him was certainly a speed bump.

 

[malraux]

The Hero's Journey traditionally involves defeating the greatest enemy of all, Death itself.

 

[Stalker0]

Why must epic play treat death like a speedbump? Can't a game be epic and still treat death seriously. The heroes of greek mythology fought alongside and occasionally challenged the gods, but even Achilles wasn't able to be "raised". No one was able to challenge Gilgamesh, but even he had to accept his own mortality. The heroes of WuXia frequently do stunts that most mortals can't even dream of, but they never come back from the dead.

While they did "fight the gods" I would say your examples are examples of paragon heroes. These guys are some of the most amazing people in the world...but just the one world. Epic heroes could literally be among the most powerful people in the universe.

But as an answer to your question...because people want it. A good group of people like coming back from the dead to be easy. WOTC gave the rest of us two tiers without it, and decided that one tier with it is a good compromise.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I don't even see the problem - 3E Epic Play allows for creating spells, that virtually can do anything, even before Epic levels, there are Wish/Miracle and True Resurrect.

So what is your problem, that the ability to get an instant raise mid-combat is an obvious option or that it is one at all. If it's option two you should have guessed so from 3E Epic levels.

That leaves you at 3 options:
1) Stop gaming when lvl 21 is reached.
2) Ban all those fancy raise powers.
3) Play with them.


Just for the record, I don't mind those powers and I think I will enjoy them.

 

[Wormwood]

The answer to the big question is, I guess, there simply wasn't any pressure to change Epic play in this manner from consumers. Or from designers. Or from other concerns, like "speed of play" etc.

Sounds logical.

 

[smathis]

The specific question I was adressing was: "Will it be possible to play this type of game in 4e?"

It would take a developer to answer this kind of question. All we know about Epic is that it's epic and has some powers that start out "Once per day, when you die..." (assuming the reviewer got that part right).

We know a little bit more about Epic based on yesterday's crunch preview. But that's more what number of powers epic heroes have and what epic play constitutes.

So the short answer is: "I don't know. You'll have to ask one of the 4e developers."

For all we know, the reviewer was exaggerating. He could have been clinging on to one or two powers available to one or two classes and then blowing that up into an outlandish statement.

It wouldn't be the first time.

But in about six weeks, we'll have an answer for you. Unless mearls, Moridin or the Rouse can clue us in earlier.

 

[Andur]

Certainly it's possible. The phrase is, after all, "Once per day, when you die...". Once per day. Kill 'em twice and they're dead, dead, dead.

Besides, this isn't unique to D&D. Just check out Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

The Green Knight gets decapitated, picks up his head, says a few words, and rides off. Death for him was certainly a speed bump.

Not so fast, there is nothing stating that you would only have one such daily power. You could have 4 daily powers all with "once per day, when you die", we simply do not have enough information to assume that kill 'em twice would be enough nor that it would make rituals no longer work after the combat.