Why does WotC hate innate casters?

[jayaint]

With the release of Dragonlance, and Miniatures Handbook there are now two (that I know of) innate divine casters produced by WotC.

Looking at them, as well as, the core sorcerer class, does anyone here @ EN have any insight as to why it takes innate casters a WHOLE EXTRA level to get 2nd level spells, thereby putting them a level behind clerics and wizards?

It would seem to a peon (like me) that the conflict between Lots-of-Spells-Known-Cast-a-Few-Times-Per-Day and A-Few-Spells-Known-Cast-Lots-of-Times-Per-Day shouldn't be so unbalancing as to require a single-classed caster to lag an entire level behind.

I'm not SHAFT-ing them, saying they're NERFed, or anything like that. Just noticed that it is now apparently WotC's blueprint to make *all* innate casters wait until the even numbered levels (4th, 6th, etc) to gain new spells.

Just curious. *shrug*

 

[Gnimish88]

Well, in my experience, with wizards and sorcerer's less then 7th level, I would say that the level lag is needed to balance inate vs. memorized spells. Even though sorcerers do not have the variety of spells available to them that wizards do, they get to choose what to cast and they get more castings per level. Even when memorizing, you tend to take a core group of spells most of the time anyway, with the occasional specialized spell for a situation you know is coming. The only place where a sorcerer really got the shaft was fixed in 3.5 by allowing them to sub out spells starting at 4th level.

 

[jgsugden]

Spontaneous casting is a *huge* advantage. The difference between selecting spells when you wake up and selecting spells when you need them is so great that you need significant disadvantages to balance out the sorcerer's advantage.

The sorcerer has more flexibility to adjust to unexpected changes. If you run into a few young white dragons, you're not stuck with a cone of cold as your 5th level spell. You can just decide to toss out an empowered fireball instead. If you run into a silence field, you can just apply your silent spell feat to most of your spells on the spot. If your party finds a pile of magic items, you can cast a few identify spells on the spot instead of waiting a day to memorize the spell. If you find a second wizard locked door behind the first, you don't have to wait an extra day to memorize another knock spell.

The sorcerer has more spells to cast per day. He has far more when you consider that some of a wizards prepared spells will likely prove to be useless or less than optimal for a situation. I've played a sorcerer in a party with a wizard more than a few times since 3.0 came out. The wizard always runs out of useful spells far before I make a dent in my spells per day, even though I cast a lot of precombat spells (shield, bull's strength, etc ...) Not only can the sorcerer toss ou more fireballs in a day, but he can be protected by mage armor for longer periods, he can be invisible for more combats, etc ...

As a counter, sorcerers have three main disadvantages:

They can't quicken spells. This is a huge disadvantage, but the presence of non-core feats can remove it.

They learn spells slower. Being 1 level behind in gaining spells is often more of a hinderance to bragging rights than to power. A wizard gets to cast 1 or 2 disintegrates while you're stuck with cones of cold? You get more cones of cold than you know what to do with ...

They know fewer total spells. This is a major hinderance at first, but as time goes by and the sorcerer learns mroe and mroe spells, this hinderance disappears. By 10th to 12th level, a sorcerer can have spells under his belt to deal with almost any type of situation. In truth, there are only a few different things that spells do: incapacitate enemies, damage enemies, provide AC, provide other protections, movement/teleportation and utility spells. Being able to choose from different ways to incapacitate an enemy is nice (hold monster, otilue's reilient sphere, flesh to stone, etc ...), but you don't need all of them. 1 or 2 will usually get the job done.

The advantages balance with the disadvantages. That is why the sorcerer gets spells slower.

 

[BSF]

Everyone has already said everything that I would say. So, I am just chiming in with my agreement.

Spontaneous casting is a really powerful ability if you have chosen your spells for a wide range of applicability. Being a little behind in acquiring the spell levels is more a nuisance than it is a huge disadvantage.

 

[jgsugden]

If you want to try a fun house rule variant of sorcerers that learn spells earlier:

Sorcerers select spells known from the sorcerer list, but treat themselves as being 1 level higher than their actual level (ie: 1st level sorcerers have the spells known of a 2nd level sorcerer). Similarly, they have spells per day as if they were 1 level higher as well. When a character chooses sorcerer as a class fopr the first time, he must select four schools of spells. The sorcerer may only choose to know spells from those four schools (plus universal).

This version of a sorcerere has some issues with balance. The sorcerer is usually far too effective in some forms of combat, but is far too weak in other duties. As such, I advise this version to be used only in small parties of 3 or 4 PCs so that the disadvantage is significant - if someone else can cast all your abjurations for you, there is no real cost to not having them yourself.

 

[pawsplay]

Have you ever noticed that when the spontaneous caster does get the new spell level, they immediately get more uses than the memorizer of the same level? Some stiff penalty, there.

 

[LordAO]

In my experience, even with lagging behind, your average Sorcerer is more powerful than your average Wizard. The only place I really see Sorcerers getting "shafted" is not being able to Quicken. But they have some pretty significant advantages that should not be understated.

 

[the Jester]

It's a balance issue. Others have already posted what I'd say about it; don't underestimate the flexibility of spontaneous casting. If anything, I'm tempted to say sorcerers are too powerful rather than underpowered.

 

[jayaint]

First off, thanks to everyone who replied. I get so focused in on my little mental side of the argument that its good to hear other points-of-view.

My point is, however, not one of over or underpowered, really. I understand balance. I really do. It just seems like, now, with the Mystic class from Dragonlance, and the Favored Soul class from Miniatures Handbook, that WotC has pretty much made the statement that ANY innate caster is going to be on the 4th level for 2nd, 6th level for 3rd advancement scale. And for some reason, when that realization hit me, it didn't set well. That's all. This thread is just my wondering why WotC would make it that way (seemingly) so concretely.

Pawsplay... I understand your point, but tomorrow, while my innate caster is still casting the same spells he cast the day before, your memorizer could have an ENTIRE new slate of spells memorized and will only be ONE level from getting higher level ones.

LordAO.. This thought occurred to me when looking at the innate divine casters so I didn't mean it to be a comparison between sorc/wiz. I apologize if it came across that way. And, I made a point to say this was not about "shaft"ing or "nerf"ing, just an observation, and wondering why it was so. If I think something is broken/nerfed/etc... I'll fix it: house-rule style!

If balance is the key, IMHO I believe there MUST be a more eloquent way than lagging innate casters. *shrug*

Thanks for listening.