Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[Crothian]

Your description reminds me of DND at 7-12th level and is precisely what I enjoy as well. 13th+ starts to lack creativity IMHO. Challenging the PCs seems to be comprised of blasting them with save or die spells, uping damage reduction, increasing spell resistence, and hitting them with an incredible amounts of damage. Nothing wrong with it, just not my style.

Ya, those are the uncreative ways a DM can do that. But they are not the only ways.

 

[Ry]

Ya, those are the uncreative ways a DM can do that. But they are not the only ways.

Exactly - this goes back to my point about the mental workload of the DM at high levels.

 

[hong]

And we don't think we've done everything there is. How can we teleport somewhere we've never seen? How can we scry without a crystal ball?

Get someone to play a wizard. Mang, you've been missing out.

 

[Particle_Man]

I've just gone through the phb to locate the spells that I think of as problematic (not impossibly so, but definitely something a DM would have to work at to take into account). Here is what I came up with:

Animal Shapes
Clone
Dimension Door
Ethereal Jaunt
Etherealness
Gate
Magic Jar
Miracle
Modenkainen's Disjunction
Nightmare
Passwall
Phase Door
Polymorph
Polymorph any Object
Raise Dead
Reincarnate
Resurrection
Scrying
Scrying, Greater
Shadow Walk
Shapechange
Simulacrum
Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleport, Greater
Teleportation Circle
Transport via Plants
Tree Stride
True Resurrection
Wish

Most of the above are part of the Scry-Buff-Teleport triple. (To that end, I left in Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, but took out "easy access" spells like dimension door, passwall, etc., that would make the 3rd of that triple). Gate can be part of that *and* can lead to abusive controls of too powerful creatures. Other play the "death is just my spring break" card. Others are part of the Polymorph mess. Magic Jar is a cheap way to gain free stats. Mord's Disjunction is just too good at permanent debuffing to safely use vs. players. Nightmare, if repeated enough, can negate a magic-user forever. Simulacrum is also open to abuse. And Teleport (bomb) Object, can be part of that dangerous triple.

Now I did not put "Save or Die" or close cousin "Save or be Screwed" spells on that list (or even distant cousin Blasphemy, the "don't save *and* be screwed" spell, though that could be easily modified). I am personally on the fence on that issue, as high level casters *should* be dangerous. On the other hand, without Raise Dead and its cousins, it seems the odds will catch up with the players eventually, so maybe that sort of spell should be banned too. That would make my above list much longer and the PHB spells list much shorter.

If you ban the above spells, and Monster and Magic Item abilities that duplicate the above, then I think high-level campaigns would retain more of the low-level feel. Of course, there still is the "legion of modifiers" problem, where an attack roll has 6 things that situationally add to it, 7 things that situationally subtract from it, and you soemtimes have to recalculate it from round to round. Not sure how to deal with that one.

Also, some class abilities that duplicate spells from the above list:

Druid Shapechange ability (possibly fixable by replacing with PHB II druid ability?)

Monk Abundant Step (perhaps give them Jump spell-like ability instead?), Emptyness of Body (perhaps give Gaseous Form spell-like ability instead?)

 

[Eosin the Red]

Everyone is different but for me around 8-10th level the game turns into a wire-fu exotic combat rather than good ole hiney kickin'. I like the classic fantasy tropes and they just seem to dissolve as my group heads into the upper echelons of power.

Our "sweet spot" is from 3-7th level with the epic plots revolving around 8-11th level characters.

 

[Ceresco]

It seems like most people don't play a lot of high level games (i.e. 13th+). What are your takes and experiences?

jh

For me the biggest problem is that I have ADD and a sequential memory learning disability. I cannot hold more than three numbers in a row in my head. Learning a new phone number takes an embarassingly long time. As a DM I cannot add all the modifiers in my head, so I need a calculator (or a player with a calculator for a brain) or write it out long hand. If I write it out the odds are I will make an error becuase it's in the heat of play and if I hurry I am most likely to make a mistake.

To actually stat out anything above 5th level at one sitting is to much for me. I'd go totally bonkers with all the numbers running around in my head. I can organically create a PC because it happens at a much slower pace. Becuase of the ADD I haven't been able to figure out PCGen or Hero Forge. I'd like to learn how to use PCGen becasue I am told it has an Arcanis patch.

And as far as why it seems broken at higher levels is as has been explained. Plot busting abilities. Power and wealth beyond most mortals. All the things that seem to ramp up the power and make it feel like a video game. Get more items to defeat more things to gain another level.

I guess the break down is that at some point it no longer seems like fantasy. The super hero analogy seems fit. I recall a super hero game where I had a PC with undetectable invisibility from anything but chemical sensors, teleport unerringly behind the enemy and could take iterative attacks so that he could know them unconcious. Turns out these are the same traits that I don't like in my fantasy.

So, it's not that I don't like playing super heroes. I just don't like them in a specific type of setting. I can imagine settings where there might still be good story telling going on at epic levels. I suspect Planescape is like that. Arcanis is as well, oddly enough, even though I don't judge tables above 10th level. The story hasn't fallen appart yet due to high level play. The campaign has artifitial means to keep PCs from leveling to quickly, the campaign was designed from inception to have a story arc that would take PCs from first to 20th. But there have been a number of events where a table of six 16th level PCs were playing and they seemed happily challenged afterwards. It's just not for me.

As all things in life, it just comes down to personal taste.

edward-

 

[CrusadeDave]

Bad Spell Buffs

I think one of the main problems with the Upper level Core Spells are spells that offer immunities rather than bonuses and a lack of Core spells meant to negate counter "game breakers".

First, let's talk about Freedom of Movement. A 4th level spell that prevents an Epic Dragon from grappling a halfling wizard. This is bunk. It should offer a nice bonus, like +caster level, to either the character's Escape Artist check or Grapple Check. This way grapple still means something.

Hero's Feast: Offer a competence bonus, 1/2 caster level, to saves versus poison, rather than offer immunity.

Find the Path: Rather than automatically detecting traps, solutions to puzzles, and acting as the magical GPS system, offer a competence bonus, caster level, to survival checks to determine direction, search checks to find traps, and knowledge dungeoneering to navigate towards the goal.

Death Ward: Rather than offer complete immunity to all negative energy and death effects, offer a sacred bonus, caster level, to saving throws made to negate/ignore energy drain, ability drain, and negative energy.

Right now each of those spells just turns off threats from grappling, poison, and getting lost/ detecting traps, and dealing with Undead, so DM's stop using them as they become futile. Using a bonus, means the DM can still use them and can make the grapplers bigger, the poison deadlier, the traps harder to find, and the undead meaner.

Teleport, Scry, Divination, Fly, Etheral Jaunt, Plane Shift, and Disjunction all have game breaking abilities, for a DM who can't answer the question, "If they've been hunting down the high level mage all this time, why didn't he just scry buff and teleport them 5 levels ago when he could have taken them easy?"

Each of these need some sort of basic counter that is readily available at a lower level, but not perfectly a guaranteed success. Something that allows the player to have plausible deniable on the internal consistancy of the magic level in the world.

In my campaign world, I couldn't comprehend a way to not hose the players with multiple Disjunctions that allowed the villains to seem intelligent. So I built in a mechanic where IC the Archmage guild delivers a message to every wizard as they hit 13th level, with a note of congratulations, and a warning, "Thou Shalt not Disjoin." With the implied message that if they did, they would be buffed, scryed and teleported.

Haste has slow. Why can't Fly have Land, a second level spell an evil Cleric could attach to his unhallowed ballroom, so his skeleton archers from the balcony above can pick off people entering the room?

If you could make it easier for DM's to keep the campaign world grounded and consistent with the "game breakers", the spells that change the way your players play, more campaigns would succeed into the later levels.

(I finally gave up. I'm ending my campaign after 1 more session. My players are 24th level.)

 

[phindar]

Our Planescape campaign began with 12th level characters. Should I be scared?

Most of the high level games my group has played have purposefully started out at high level. Switching from a heroic fantasy game to a superheroes game (around 9th) can leave a group with the feeling the game has jumped the shark, everything you spent the last 8 levels worrying about can be fixed, usually in one action. But if you start out with superheroes, there's no major change in the game.

 

[broghammerj]

Ya, those are the uncreative ways a DM can do that. But they are not the only ways.

Sure I agree, but that is what happens to the creatures in the MM. If the designers intended it otherwise, I think they would written high CR monsters differently. Instead they do massive damage, have high DR and SR. Sure a creative DM can make things better. Same way I can trick out a Honda Civic to go 150mph...not something that really interests me or something most Honda drivers want to do (I exagerate a bit). I am not saying you cant have fun.

Perhaps most of my opinions are related to my experience with AoW. This is my only time ever playing high levels (currenlty 16th). The DM is a great DM, but I find the combat to be all or none (ie die instantly or kill instantly). I think many on this board find that to be a quality adventure written by talented people. I figure it's a fair measuring stick.

 

[Gundark]

I havn't enjoyed it as much. High level D&D is kinda like playing fantasy superheores. If I wanted to play superheroes I would be playing mutants and masterminds. Combats seem to take a lot longer at higher levels. Lower levels are easier to manage.