D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Demetrios1453]

I agree, this is something I would personaly like, but this is because I dont really like the Realms like their are, mainly because the setting seems stuck in his own. Most real fans dislike any attempt to move the setting foward, because that would mean changes to the things they like as they are. Maybe if those changes were not provoked by a huge cataclysm but only by the passage of time it would be better received, I dont know. Let Elminster, Drizzt, the Time of Trouble, the Spellplague and all that become legends from another time like we have King Arthur and Robin Hood IRL.

They can also just let the Realms be the Realms. Many people love it and I like when people have fun with D&D, no matter the setting they use.

I don't think many people objected to the passage of time in the setting when it was moving forward at a relatively reasonable rate from 1e through 3e (the "present" date moved from 1357 DR to 1375 DR during that time, with a small jump in the setting every few years of real life time). It was only the massive time jump a century into the future in 4e that really caused waves...

 

[Selvarin]

I agree, this is something I would personaly like, but this is because I dont really like the Realms like their are, mainly because the setting seems stuck in his own. Most real fans dislike any attempt to move the setting foward, because that would mean changes to the things they like as they are. Maybe if those changes were not provoked by a huge cataclysm but only by the passage of time it would be better received, I dont know. Let Elminster, Drizzt, the Time of Trouble, the Spellplague and all that become legends from another time like we have King Arthur and Robin Hood IRL.

They can also just let the Realms be the Realms. Many people love it and I like when people have fun with D&D, no matter the setting they use.

I don't think it's that they're "stuck", more like they've disliked various changes:

A) The map change where certain parts were resized as if the Realms needed a 'tummy tuck' (the Shaar, etc., pre-4th Edition);

B) The effort to make the Realms more 'palatable' to the non-Realms gamers in 4th Edition by, basically, tearing shyyyyte up---Eartheart, the inner Sea, the Shaar, destroying Halruaa, etc. etc.

C) Part Deux--killing off a bunch of gods because, hey, all those numbers hurt people's heads.

I could go on but I won't. Dead horse beaten, across multiple threads.

Alienating one group of fans in order to *possibly* gain some others....meh.



~~Anything below applies in general to what's been said in this thread as a whole~~

In the end, the Forgotten Realms is a good choice if one needs or wants a ready-made default high fantasy setting with maps and what not. 5E FR provides enough to start playing without resulting in the complaints that come with the older material--too many products, too much information, too many uber-NPCs (since they're mostly either dead or depowered in 5E FR). You can use the bare bones and add original content--In fact it's encouraged because it's your Realms!--or you can buy up older material to flesh it out.

Someone mentioned the FR tie-ins for most new WotC-approved adventure books as an issue. OK. Well, most adventures aren't so 'embedded' into a setting that it can't be reworked. Seriously, most adventures are comprised of locales, encounters, and specific characters or groups.

Also, the other thing about FR content in published 5E adventures: If I'm not mistaken, I thought this was a bit of a compromise for FR fans, since there weren't plans for a more complete 5E Cyclopedia of the Realms. People who just want the adventure can use it, though the FR tie-in is undeniable.

 

[Hussar]

But, take the gods as a perfect example.

How many gods are there in Forgotten Realms? Several hundred I believe. I know that back in 2e I had both Faiths and Avatars and the second book whose name I forget, which details a bucket full of gods.

Ok, believable, certainly. There are certainly cultures with that many gods. But, good grief, it isn't really all that necessary is it? I mean, we can get away with a Greek Pantheon of a couple of dozen gods and that's pretty decent. Do we really need hundreds of different gods for a single setting?

But, any suggestion that we pare down that number gets this reaction:

C) Part Deux--killing off a bunch of gods because, hey, all those numbers hurt people's heads.

No, it's not that all those numbers hurt my head. It's that all those numbers means that I'm just going to ignore 99% of what you write. Again, it's that mountain of material that I talked about.

Right now, I'm playing a Priest of Kossuth in a new campaign. Now, this is a character that I played back in 2e that I have repurposed for the new campaign (new group, new edition, just a really favorite character). So, I hit up the wiki article on Kossuth. In the 20 years since that character first saw light, there has been virtually nothing added, other than Kossuth is now a primordial apparently.

And I love it. I have a nice clean canvas to paint with an I can make my character and his place in the clergy pretty much entirely my own. But, if I wanted to play a cleric of one of the more popular gods? Good grief, there are dozens of pages of material to wade through.

No thanks.

If they shanked half the gods in FR, who would even notice?

 

[cbwjm]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about most of the gods until they became relevant. Why read up on dozens of gods when you only need to find out about yours, in which case SCAG has a paragraph on each god which is all you really need.

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[Demetrios1453]

But, take the gods as a perfect example.

How many gods are there in Forgotten Realms? Several hundred I believe. I know that back in 2e I had both Faiths and Avatars and the second book whose name I forget, which details a bucket full of gods.

Ok, believable, certainly. There are certainly cultures with that many gods. But, good grief, it isn't really all that necessary is it? I mean, we can get away with a Greek Pantheon of a couple of dozen gods and that's pretty decent. Do we really need hundreds of different gods for a single setting?

But, any suggestion that we pare down that number gets this reaction:



No, it's not that all those numbers hurt my head. It's that all those numbers means that I'm just going to ignore 99% of what you write. Again, it's that mountain of material that I talked about.

Right now, I'm playing a Priest of Kossuth in a new campaign. Now, this is a character that I played back in 2e that I have repurposed for the new campaign (new group, new edition, just a really favorite character). So, I hit up the wiki article on Kossuth. In the 20 years since that character first saw light, there has been virtually nothing added, other than Kossuth is now a primordial apparently.

And I love it. I have a nice clean canvas to paint with an I can make my character and his place in the clergy pretty much entirely my own. But, if I wanted to play a cleric of one of the more popular gods? Good grief, there are dozens of pages of material to wade through.

No thanks.

If they shanked half the gods in FR, who would even notice?

Well, a quick comparison between the FR deities and Greyhawk deities from 3e (the last edition we have good data to make a comparison) comes up with 69 human deities for the Forgotten Realms (including the 10 from the Mulhorandi pantheon) and a whopping 86 human deities for Greyhawk (including the 6 Olman deities, but not the 13 "hero deities", which is a rank the Forgotten Realms doesn't even have). Non-human and monstrous deities are virtually the same for both settings (the dwarven, elven, and, especially, drow pantheons have differences, but in the end FR only gains a couple more deities here, unless we count the hero deities, in which case Greyhawk comes out ahead). SCAG has 48 human deities for the Realms, adding Asmodeus and a few previously dead gods, but most of the previous demigods are currently MIA (with no indication if they are still there or gone), so we don't know what the current number may actually be. So a multitude of deities is certainly not just a Forgotten Realms exclusive when it comes to D&D!

(This of course only covers the Flanaess and Faerun; although we could get a reasonable count for the gods of Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica, I don't think we have enough detail to accurately enumerate the deities of the rest of Oerik to allow us to make a fair comparison.)

 

[valarmorgulis]

There is indeed a mountain of material for FR, which is a positive for many and a negative for many. But consider this... if any of these other worlds were supported in the way that FR has been supported, they would suffer from the same issue of "too much material" and "the good guys always win".

As an aside, I don't mind the FR naming convention most of the time, with the exception of some of the titles for clergy... and the "Kissmoot".

 

[Hussar]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about most of the gods until they became relevant. Why read up on dozens of gods when you only need to find out about yours, in which case SCAG has a paragraph on each god which is all you really need.

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But, again, we're right back to "just ignore stuff".

My ENTIRE problem is the fact that that is NOT a selling point for the setting. Yes, I am completely aware that I can just ignore stuff. But, if I'm ignoring stuff, then what's the selling point of Forgotten Realms? What differentiates the setting from any other setting?

To boil it right down, what's in it for me?

Well, a quick comparison between the FR deities and Greyhawk deities from 3e (the last edition we have good data to make a comparison) comes up with 69 human deities for the Forgotten Realms (including the 10 from the Mulhorandi pantheon) and a whopping 86 human deities for Greyhawk (including the 6 Olman deities, but not the 13 "hero deities", which is a rank the Forgotten Realms doesn't even have). Non-human and monstrous deities are virtually the same for both settings (the dwarven, elven, and, especially, drow pantheons have differences, but in the end FR only gains a couple more deities here, unless we count the hero deities, in which case Greyhawk comes out ahead). SCAG has 48 human deities for the Realms, adding Asmodeus and a few previously dead gods, but most of the previous demigods are currently MIA (with no indication if they are still there or gone), so we don't know what the current number may actually be. So a multitude of deities is certainly not just a Forgotten Realms exclusive when it comes to D&D!

(This of course only covers the Flanaess and Faerun; although we could get a reasonable count for the gods of Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica, I don't think we have enough detail to accurately enumerate the deities of the rest of Oerik to allow us to make a fair comparison.)

Telling me that Greyhawk has too many gods is again, not a selling point for Forgotten Realms. I have precisely the same problem (although to a lesser extent) with Greyhawk as I do with FR. I remember when I ran the Savage Tide Adveture Path. I figured I'd dive into Greyhawk lore and try to really do the setting justice.

Holy crap there's a lot of material for Greyhawk. There's like 22 or so Oerth Journals, each one weighing in at about 30 pages of pretty dense type. Never minding any of the primary sources as well. I REALLY have no interest in a setting with 600+ pages of setting material. Again, wall of material is a non-starter for me.

Compare to Scarred Lands, a setting I did get heavily into until they started crapping out books at an alarming rate. If you confine yourself to Scarn, and not the other continents, you've got about 6 hardcovers and about a dozen soft covers. Again, to me? Too much. I got the original hardcovers, and then just gave up on the setting, despite running it in 3e for several years.

If you can't give me a setting in a single 100 (ish) page book, I am simply not interested anymore. Modules are a bit different, since those are meant to be used at the table. But reference books? Yeah, I'll give you about 1 book now until I lose interest.

 

[cbwjm]

But, again, we're right back to "just ignore stuff".

My ENTIRE problem is the fact that that is NOT a selling point for the setting. Yes, I am completely aware that I can just ignore stuff. But, if I'm ignoring stuff, then what's the selling point of Forgotten Realms? What differentiates the setting from any other setting?

To boil it right down, what's in it for me?



Telling me that Greyhawk has too many gods is again, not a selling point for Forgotten Realms. I have precisely the same problem (although to a lesser extent) with Greyhawk as I do with FR. I remember when I ran the Savage Tide Adveture Path. I figured I'd dive into Greyhawk lore and try to really do the setting justice.

Holy crap there's a lot of material for Greyhawk. There's like 22 or so Oerth Journals, each one weighing in at about 30 pages of pretty dense type. Never minding any of the primary sources as well. I REALLY have no interest in a setting with 600+ pages of setting material. Again, wall of material is a non-starter for me.

Compare to Scarred Lands, a setting I did get heavily into until they started crapping out books at an alarming rate. If you confine yourself to Scarn, and not the other continents, you've got about 6 hardcovers and about a dozen soft covers. Again, to me? Too much. I got the original hardcovers, and then just gave up on the setting, despite running it in 3e for several years.

If you can't give me a setting in a single 100 (ish) page book, I am simply not interested anymore. Modules are a bit different, since those are meant to be used at the table. But reference books? Yeah, I'll give you about 1 book now until I lose interest.

It isn't ignoring stuff, it's just not worrying about information that isn't immediately relevant.

If no one is a cleric of Torm and it isn't relevant to the adventure or location then you don't need to worry about it. Once someone wants to worship Torm or you have a quest that involves the priesthood, then you bring them in. That's what I'm saying when I say you don't need to read up on all of the gods or all of the locations throughout Faerun. Don't waste your time by reading up on everything, just read what you need to know.

Sent from my SM-G925I using EN World mobile app

 

[Sadras]

But, again, we're right back to "just ignore stuff".

My ENTIRE problem is the fact that that is NOT a selling point for the setting. Yes, I am completely aware that I can just ignore stuff. But, if I'm ignoring stuff, then what's the selling point of Forgotten Realms? What differentiates the setting from any other setting?

That is unfair. You are only ignoring that which doesn't concern your campaign in the immediate present. You would need to know a handful of deities (including the ones your characters selected). As the setting grows around the campaign, so to can you add more deities/lore should you desire and are capable to.

Do I need to use all of them before it is called a FR campaign? Wheren't you defending @pemerton just recently regarding his right to call his campaign a GH campaign even though he had imported the Towers of Sorcery and Krynn's 3 moons?

 

[Aldarc]

Well, a quick comparison between the FR deities and Greyhawk deities from 3e (the last edition we have good data to make a comparison) comes up with 69 human deities for the Forgotten Realms (including the 10 from the Mulhorandi pantheon) and a whopping 86 human deities for Greyhawk (including the 6 Olman deities, but not the 13 "hero deities", which is a rank the Forgotten Realms doesn't even have). Non-human and monstrous deities are virtually the same for both settings (the dwarven, elven, and, especially, drow pantheons have differences, but in the end FR only gains a couple more deities here, unless we count the hero deities, in which case Greyhawk comes out ahead). SCAG has 48 human deities for the Realms, adding Asmodeus and a few previously dead gods, but most of the previous demigods are currently MIA (with no indication if they are still there or gone), so we don't know what the current number may actually be. So a multitude of deities is certainly not just a Forgotten Realms exclusive when it comes to D&D!

(This of course only covers the Flanaess and Faerun; although we could get a reasonable count for the gods of Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica, I don't think we have enough detail to accurately enumerate the deities of the rest of Oerik to allow us to make a fair comparison.)

Oh, I agree that Greyhawk definitely has more deities. But what I like about Greyhawk's setup is that these pantheons can be subdivided into cultural pantheons, and not just racial ones. There are Oeridian, Suel, Flan, Baklunish, and some cross-cultural ones. There is overlap between deities' "portfolios" but they are tolerated, especially if there are cultural boundaries that provide a degree of exclusive worship. Boccob and Wee Jas, for example, are both deities of magic. The Greyhawk deities are expansive, but it does not generally suffer from things like Ao, the Time of Troubles, or the cut and dry, if not cringeworthy, balancing deity portfolios as if they were hardcopy portfolios and accountancy spreadsheets.

If you can't give me a setting in a single 100 (ish) page book, I am simply not interested anymore. Modules are a bit different, since those are meant to be used at the table. But reference books? Yeah, I'll give you about 1 book now until I lose interest.

Setting books this short are generally not that common unless they are players' guides to a setting. Though that may also have to do with many setting books, depending on the rule set, also serving as the PHB and GM book rolled into one.