D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Maxperson]

Eberron? Not really, and certainly not in comparison with Forgotten Realms, which I believe is Hussar's point. Most NPCs listed in the original ECS rarely break level 10, with exceptions such as your typical Dragonmarked House Baron (e.g. Merrix d'Cannith). Most NPCs listed actually do have NPC class levels. This intentional design approach is apparently worth writing about, as Sean K Reynolds discusses this fact about Eberron in this old article. Even low-level NPCs are further toned-down in Eberron, as class levels are regarded as rare and exceptional.

There are only a few named NPCs off the top of my head that I can recall having high levels (15+) in Eberron: Vol, Great Druid Oalian (an awakened greatpine), the Keeper of the Flame Jaelin Daran (but only when she's in Flamekeep), and the Twin Rulers of Aerenal. As you may have noticed, these high level characters almost overwhelmingly tend to be geographically restricted. The Twins aren't going to leave Aerenal. Oalian can't leave Greenheart; he's a tree. Jaelin's high levels are only within Flamekeep, and she's a level 3 cleric everywhere else. None of these characters exceed level 20.

Can you honestly say the same about Forgotten Realms in 3e? It's laughable to claim that they are even remotely comparable. There's probably more characters in Forgotten Realms who exceed level 20 than there are in Eberron who exceed level 10. That's the sort of thing that Hussar is talking about.

"In comparison" is not relevant. Either high level NPCs make your PCs feel inadequate or not special, or they don't. Picking and choosing which high level NPCs do that to you and which don't is disingenuous.

 

[Maxperson]

So you don't believe the conclusions WoTC came to when they did thier financial analysis of the company they'd bought/were buying?
You know better than the people who made this investment?
It's very possible for a company to have too many product lines. Especially when there's strong competition from other similar/related things. You see car companies adjust thier model offerings each year because of this.

It's also very possible that there were variables that they didn't consider, or over/under valued and came to the wrong conclusion. Companies make mistakes.

 

[Maxperson]

I read that Daniel Boone killed a bear when he was was only three, but that didn't happen, either. And, yes, in the fiction, Elminister did adventure, but that doesn't mean other high-level NPCs adventured.

Yes, he did kill a bear when he was three. It was written, so in that fiction it happened. As for the other NPCs not adventuring, I prefer to play in a rational world, not one where people just pop in at 16th or 27th level. They all adventured and gained experience though another similar method, or they would be first level.

That's interesting; other people are saying that people can just remove Elminister from Forgotten Realms if we want, and you're saying that there will always be high-level characters. I don't know why that any setting would explicitly say that there are no NPCs over level x, because you just don't write any for that setting, and leave it up to the DM to put them in or not as they will.

If you have the perception that high level NPCs like Elminster diminish your PCs, then that applies across the board or you are engaging in hypocritical behavior. All high level NPCs should be doing that to you, no matter how many or few are in your edition. Now, if it's just that you don't like Elminster for whatever OTHER reason such as you don't care for Chosen of Mystra, then that's fine. Just remove him and the other chosen since they are offending you.

 

[Hussar]

Yuppers, everyone who doesn't care for the Realms is just plain old wrong.

Funny how I got jumped on for dismissing things, but, when people actually tell why they don't like the Realms, they're called hypocrites and their concerns are completely dismissed.

I'm leaning farther and farther towards finding a new reason to actually hate the Realms - Realms fans.

 

[Maxperson]

Yuppers, everyone who doesn't care for the Realms is just plain old wrong.

Nobody has said that.

Funny how I got jumped on for dismissing things, but, when people actually tell why they don't like the Realms, they're called hypocrites and their concerns are completely dismissed.

Eh, no. If someone doesn't like the flavor, that's valid. If someone doesn't like how close the gods are to the Realms, that's valid. If someone doesn't like all the major changes each edition, that's valid. If someone says that high level NPCs invalidate their PCs in the Realms, but somehow don't do that in other settings, that's where it gets hokey. Be consistent is all I'm saying.

 

[Caliban]

Don't feed the trolls.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That was probably the most unbelievable aspect of Eberron. Somehow there was this "hundred" year war that resulted in a couple of level 10 NPCs.

Uh huh, right

You know, I can kind of see it.

It's easier if you decouple exp from fighting, so that the soldiers aren't gaining a couple hundred xp every battle, but even then it comes to a simple point.

Once a person got powerful enough to be a significant threat to the opposing side, a lot more resources were used to drop that one person.

Also, in a more cinematic world, it is possible for a fight to be a draw and both people die, so the ones who made it out the other side were just the ones good enough to get there and lucky enough to last until the war was over.

But, that's just personal head canon for something I don't know anything about.

Yes, he did kill a bear when he was three. It was written, so in that fiction it happened. As for the other NPCs not adventuring, I prefer to play in a rational world, not one where people just pop in at 16th or 27th level. They all adventured and gained experience though another similar method, or they would be first level.

Does that apply to the Gods?

I never played in 3.5 but I have seen stat blocks for the various deities at one point or another, and they are listed as like Wizard 20/Thief 15/ Fighter 5 or ridiculous things like that. Did they actually start at level 1 and go one adventures with the other gods to fight goblins at level 1?

That seems entirely silly right?


One of the weird things with the level system is that it is both a measure of experience and of power for the players, but for a lot of NPCs it is almost strictly a measure of power. That's something I found fascinating when someone mentioned a character who was level 3, unless she was in her temple, then she was level 20.

Her experience didn't change, but her relative power did. So having a level X person just show up can work, if there is a reason they should have such power.

And frankly, I want to steal that "different levels in different places" idea. Just not sure what to do with it yet.

 

[Hussar]

Nobody has said that.


Eh, no. If someone doesn't like the flavor, that's valid. If someone doesn't like how close the gods are to the Realms, that's valid. If someone doesn't like all the major changes each edition, that's valid. If someone says that high level NPCs invalidate their PCs in the Realms, but somehow don't do that in other settings, that's where it gets hokey. Be consistent is all I'm saying.

And, of course, you get to be the arbiter of what is a "valid" reason for not liking the Realms. Because there is no difference with a setting that has maybe a small handful of high level NPC's, most of which are either villains or tied to specific locations, and a setting that has literally dozens of high level, very active NPC's. They are, of course, exactly the same.

Don't feed the trolls.

Excellent advice. I dunno what I did to piddle in your cornflakes bud. But, then, I suppose it's easier just to dismiss me as trolling than actually come up with any real answers to my questions.

It is still a standing question - what does Forgotten Realms offer me other than the mountain of material?

 

[Caliban]

Excellent advice. I dunno what I did to piddle in your cornflakes bud. But, then, I suppose it's easier just to dismiss me as trolling than actually come up with any real answers to my questions.

Oh dear. Did you think that was directed at you?

I wonder why.

It is still a standing question - what does Forgotten Realms offer me other than the mountain of material?

Not getting sucked down that rabbit hole again. You had this answered dozens of times, yet you keep asking. Strange.

It's almost as if you are more interested in provoking a reaction than in any answer you might receive. But that can't be the case, can it?

 

[Demetrios1453]

Oh dear. Did you think that was directed at you?

I wonder why.



Not getting sucked down that rabbit hole again. You had this answered dozens of times, yet you keep asking. Strange.

It's almost as if you are more interested in provoking a reaction than in any answer you might receive. But that can't be the case, can it?

I can almost hear the merry-go-round music as he invites us all on for another ride! Sorry, there's much more interesting and less repetitive rides at this fair, thank you very much!