D&D 5E Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

[bid]

The Champion takes Martial adept and does both.

They both take martial adept, champion is still 4 SD behind. At around 10 damage per SD, that's a steep hill to climb.


riposte: 2d6+4+2+1d8 * .65 = 11.375 per SD (15.36 reckless)
precision: 2d6+4+2 = 13 (if you turn a miss into a hit)
So lets call it 40 extra damage for the BM.

 

[cbwjm]

I like the champion, I prefer it to the battlemaster and would likely choose champion or eldritch knight if I was going to play a fighter. I have a criminal champion fighter (a fighter/thief) that is waiting on the sidelines should my current character end up dead (would have happened last session with my character dissolved in acid but a retcon of the area by my DM saved their life).

 

[Zardnaar]

You have 2 round combats as 'typical'? Id like to see your encounter design and set up.



If using a longsword and as a human, then you get a lot less mileage out of the archetype for sure, just like if you have fewer than the recommended number of encounters per day. If you have a lot of encounters (and not much time to rest) then it comes back up again.

Things like flametounges, weapons that deal extra die damage, rogue or barbarian dips, or a regular source of advantage bring it back up again also. With an 18-20 crit range and advantage you have a 27.8 percent chance of every swing being an auto hit and a crit. Useful for particularly hard to hit targets at high level as well.

Assuming even just 3 round combats, 7 per long rest and 2.5 short rests at 20th level youre getting (4 x 28) or around 120 attacks per long rest (not including attacks of opportunity, polearm master bonus attacks, two weapon fighting, sentinel, GWM etc). The latter should net you another 20 or so attacks per long rest. Lets say 140 attacks per long rest at 20th level.

With an 18-20 crit range (and no advantage) you're spamming 2 extra crits every 20 swings. Unoptimised (human with greatsword) you're dealing 17 extra crits per long rest or 34d6 extra damage per long rest. Its around the same as the 21d12 you're spamming as a BM fighter (2 and a half short rests).

Grab a flametounge for an extra 4d6 fire damage on each of those 17 crits (and shove your target down on the first swing for a 30 percent crit chance per swing) if you want to highlight what a champion can do.

3 would be more typical 1 and 2 rounds would be more common than 5 though.

Your math falls apart though if.

1 Not a half Orc.
2. Less than 5 eounds of combat.
3. You have to use a d12 weapon.

Thats a lot of assumptions and the extra damage of BM is one of the weaker things they can do. It excludes things like rogues and archers in the party where your half orc with axe can't hit crap due to range.

In general BM is a lot better than Champion. Most of the time they are better at dealing damage abd thats all the champion can do.

Its also a long way to 20 95% of the time you are worse off and thats assuming you make it to 20. In practice thats ptobably more like 99% of the time.

 

[Gradine]

A 25% crit rate is not something I'm keen to allow to happen.

I see what you did there

I remember once, in the old Ask Red Mage column, when somebody asked him what his favorite class was. He said he usually ended up playing Fighters, which he explained with the following exchange:

"DM: There's a problem.
Me: I hit it until it's not a problem anymore."

The Champion is essentially that option. Except even then you can only really use so many ASI's before it starts making more sense to take feats. But yeah, it's the class option for the Submission aesthetic of play. Beer-and-pretzels, kick down the door, kick down the orc, take its treasure play. It works well for what it's there for. More so than 4e's fighter, arguably 3.x's also. Doesn't need anything more than that.

 

[Flamestrike]

They both take martial adept, champion is still 4 SD behind. At around 10 damage per SD, that's a steep hill to climb.

What about adventures where there is limited chance for a short rest (due to time or environmental constraints), and multiple or protracted (or both) encounters to deal with?

And again, simply arming the champion with a +d6 damage weapon and you pull ahead. Flametounge, Frostbrand, Hazirawn etc. Being a half orc really helps also.

 

[bid]

What about adventures where there is limited chance for a short rest (due to time or environmental constraints), and multiple or protracted (or both) encounters to deal with?

You still run out of hp before the champion catches up. Try it out.

 

[Flamestrike]

You still run out of hp before the champion catches up. Try it out.

Thats what clerics (and healing potions) are for.

The fact remains that a well build mid-high level Champion with the right gear outclasses a well built BM with the same gear. Even moreso on longer adventuring days with fewer short rests available.

Where they suck is with a DM that is permissive with resting, or neglects to regularly impose longer adventuring days.

From memory the OP is one such DM.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Personally I think the reason the BM outshines the Champion isn't the pure DPR. As shown by both sides presented there are many many variables ( short rests being one of the most important, but weapons used, specific magic weapons used, etc ). The riders are what push the BM way over the top in my eyes. With at least comparable damage ( usually more in my experience but lets go with equal ) the riders can completely change a fight. Forcing an enemy prone tends to be bad news for him. Frightened plus ranged attacks keeps an enemy from even touching you ( or other party members if positioning is accounted for ). These factors in addition to the damage make the BM the superior choice in my book. The Champion isn't bad, but I feel like he is missing a little something.

 

[MechaPilot]

I see what you did there

Was hoping someone would get it. Nice catch.

I remember once, in the old Ask Red Mage column, when somebody asked him what his favorite class was. He said he usually ended up playing Fighters, which he explained with the following exchange:

"DM: There's a problem.
Me: I hit it until it's not a problem anymore."

The Champion is essentially that option. Except even then you can only really use so many ASI's before it starts making more sense to take feats. But yeah, it's the class option for the Submission aesthetic of play. Beer-and-pretzels, kick down the door, kick down the orc, take its treasure play. It works well for what it's there for. More so than 4e's fighter, arguably 3.x's also. Doesn't need anything more than that.

It's definitely a solid beat-stick subclass that deserves its place. And, if you are going for a kick-in-the-door style of play, it's a good option (though I could easily see a valid argument for a Bear Barbarian being as good, possibly even better, at surviving damage and dishing it out as a champion fighter). Plus, the champion fighter is a good introductory subclass for people who are new to the game.*

I would disagree with it working more well for what it's there for than the 4e fighter, if only because the 4e fighter was very sticky and very punishing to those who ignored it, and that's basically what it was there for. That said, if people were expecting the 4e fighter to be the same as the 3e fighter they were going to be surprised (either pleasantly or not, depending on preference). I'm just glad to see the 4e-style fighter come back in 5e with the knight subclass (although you really need the Martial Adept feat to solidify the 4e feel), since the champion fighter with ASIs (or the resilience feat multiple times) is basically the 2e fighter and the champion with feats is basically the 3e fighter.

*Not that the game is all that hard. I always describe how to play to new players as "tell me what you want your character to do, and I'll tell you how to roll for it (if a roll is needed)." That said, you have less record-keeping and less ability tracking with a champion fighter than you do with a wizard, so it can be a very good class/subclass for introducing new players to the game.

 

[Flamestrike]

Personally I think the reason the BM outshines the Champion isn't the pure DPR. As shown by both sides presented there are many many variables ( short rests being one of the most important, but weapons used, specific magic weapons used, etc ). The riders are what push the BM way over the top in my eyes. With at least comparable damage ( usually more in my experience but lets go with equal ) the riders can completely change a fight. Forcing an enemy prone tends to be bad news for him. Frightened plus ranged attacks keeps an enemy from even touching you ( or other party members if positioning is accounted for ). These factors in addition to the damage make the BM the superior choice in my book. The Champion isn't bad, but I feel like he is missing a little something.

The Champion gets +1 to AC and +3 to initiative (always on) plus regeneration of 10 hp per round (up to half max).

Thats not bad.