Why I don't like 4th edition

[LeStryfe79]

I grew up playing 1st/2nd edition, among other games. I liked but didn't love 3rd edition, as I felt for everything they fixed something else was broken. Last year I played a LOT of SWSE and had the best time of my life!!! This is why I was really excited about 4th edition. Then I played it...

What went wrong?

First off I'd like to add that I still liked 4th after reading it. It wasn't until I played it that I became aware of my assessment. Many things seemed perfectly good in theory, but didn't pan out. For instance, why did they decide to make the fights drag out so long!?! If I were watching a Star Wars movie that had a 90 min lightsaber duel, with a tacked on 10 minute skill challenge and 20 minute story, I'd get pretty bored. The DMG emphasizes keeping a fast pace and moving on to the fun. Yet, the 90 minute fight that just played out was more like 1 minute of in-game time! This completely took everyone I played with out of the mood. Sure, "take the treasure, and put that smile back on your face." Whatever. It's too late, the momentum's been lost. Now do this 2 or 3 times and call it a night.

Then there is the reliance on miniatures. For years I thought I liked em, but then I realized something. No matter how good your maps and miniatures are, they'll always be a poor representation for whats going on, specifically in today's age of video games and CG. That being said, I've always found myself using my imagination more when forced to do it, without distractions. And The DMG even points out that imagination is the BEST special effect. So why on earth do they force people to use the extra layer of separation. We already have a character sheet and dice to tell us whats going on. Too many game pieces allows people to play without using their imagination. This started in 3rd edition but was nowhere near as bad.

Third, we have powers. Powers, powers, and more powers. I loved using Force powers in SWSE, so I assumed the same would hold true here. Unfortunately I found that not to be the case. There are far too many to chose from. An obvious design decision. In SW, powers could be chosen more than once, and remained useful throughout your career. In 4th, powers can only be selected once and are only useful for a limited time. That means several similar powers get made with slight tweaks and improvements. Throw in At Wills and Dailies and a character becomes a deck of cards. Not only is this less accessible, but I would much rather my powers feel like special events, than use a different power every single round of the game.

I also believe Wizards got a little too Resource-happy. In all, HP, XP, GP, Encounter and Daily powers, Action Points and Healing surges are all separate resources. Strategic use of action points is cool, but surely a better method than healing surges exist? Once again, having too many resources makes this game feel clunky. And daily powers recreate the same "spells per day" dilema previous editions had. Why not rest between each fight? I thought 4th was getting away from all of that. Apparently not.

I realize I could home brew many of these problems away, and I have. Unfortunately, in the end these kinds of rules won't be appearing in any 3rd party publication. This is because Wizards doesn't want you to fix ANYTHING. The GSL saw to that. Fair enough I'll just make my own rules, instead of buying theirs. I don't totally hate the game, I just feel like they broke as many things as they fixed. Same as it ever was. However, I'm personally getting sick of business decisions getting in the way of good design. Longer combat makes the game fit more nicely on the digital stage. More reliance on miniatures means more miniatures. More powers means more splat books. And a more restrictive GSL means there is nothing anyone can do about..That is unless you stay away altogether.

Finally, I'd like to add a special thanx to ENworld, for maintaining such a magnificent site. And I'd also like to apologize for making my first post a negative one. Clearly, I simply want to see who agrees with me. I also welcome any arguments to my points, and hold nothing against those who disagree. For years I've felt a love/hate relationship with WotC, but at the end of the day, no one can deny the substantial contributions they have made to our hobby.

 

[Mercurius]

I haven't played 4E yet, but there are a couple threads now talking about the length of combat which is quite discouraging to me. For people with busy lives and the ability to only game, say, for a five-hour session every two weeks, short-and-sweet combats are the way to go. I guess my game sessions will have to include no more than two combats per night

 

[Alikar]

I haven't played 4E yet, but there are a couple threads now talking about the length of combat which is quite discouraging to me. For people with busy lives and the ability to only game, say, for a five-hour session every two weeks, short-and-sweet combats are the way to go. I guess my game sessions will have to include no more than two combats per night

I think this has more to due with the newness of the game then anything else. If this is still a problem in 6 months then there might be a point to it.

 

[Wormwood]

I haven't played 4E yet, but there are a couple threads now talking about the length of combat which is quite discouraging to me. For people with busy lives and the ability to only game, say, for a five-hour session every two weeks, short-and-sweet combats are the way to go. I guess my game sessions will have to include no more than two combats per night

I'm in two weekly 4e games (DM in one, play in another), and each group has played 4e for three sessions.

And honestly, the last combats we played were faster than the previous sessions, and those were faster that the combats from the first week.

I really hope this trend continues.

 

[Imaro]

I think this has more to due with the newness of the game then anything else. If this is still a problem in 6 months then there might be a point to it.

I disagree here, it's not unfamiliarity... it's that the attrition war against hit points has gotten longer. I've noticed it in my games so far, we get through less of the overall adventure than we did in 3e. This is just low-level play so I can't comment on higher levels, but it's not unfamiliarity because we aren't actually looking anything up.

 

[Cadfan]

Ran a 3 hour session last week with all new players (except me). Got four full scale combats in, plus some other stuff.

 

[Imaro]

Ran a 3 hour session last week with all new players (except me). Got four full scale combats in, plus some other stuff.

This is amazing to me. But, I'm wondering were these fights with minions, or full monsters? I've noticed minion or majority minion fights go considerably quicker (but get more and more boring) over time.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I grew up playing 1st/2nd edition, among other games. I liked but didn't love 3rd edition, as I felt for everything they fixed something else was broken. Last year I played a LOT of SWSE and had the best time of my life!!! This is why I was really excited about 4th edition. Then I played it...

What went wrong?

First off I'd like to add that I still liked 4th after reading it. It wasn't until I played it that I became aware of my assessment. Many things seemed perfectly good in theory, but didn't pan out. For instance, why did they decide to make the fights drag out so long!?! If I were watching a Star Wars movie that had a 90 min lightsaber duel, with a tacked on 10 minute skill challenge and 20 minute story, I'd get pretty bored. The DMG emphasizes keeping a fast pace and moving on to the fun. Yet, the 90 minute fight that just played out was more like 1 minute of in-game time! This completely took everyone I played with out of the mood. Sure, "take the treasure, and put that smile back on your face." Whatever. It's too late, the momentum's been lost. Now do this 2 or 3 times and call it a night.

I can't say that 3E combat took less. I sometimes here of long-drawn out fights, and I think they might be a result of suboptimal encounters - to little variety, not using enough combination between monsters. But it might be a more fundamental issue that just doesn't always crop up. I am not sure ye.

Then there is the reliance on miniatures. For years I thought I liked em, but then I realized something. No matter how good your maps and miniatures are, they'll always be a poor representation for whats going on, specifically in today's age of video games and CG. That being said, I've always found myself using my imagination more when forced to do it, without distractions. And The DMG even points out that imagination is the BEST special effect. So why on earth do they force people to use the extra layer of separation. We already have a character sheet and dice to tell us whats going on. Too many game pieces allows people to play without using their imagination. This started in 3rd edition but was nowhere near as bad.

The game allows more tactical elements if you use explicit positioning. That's the reason why it's used. You just can't achieve that satisfyingly with imagination only.

Third, we have powers. Powers, powers, and more powers. I loved using Force powers in SWSE, so I assumed the same would hold true here. Unfortunately I found that not to be the case. There are far too many to chose from. An obvious design decision. In SW, powers could be chosen more than once, and remained useful throughout your career. In 4th, powers can only be selected once and are only useful for a limited time. That means several similar powers get made with slight tweaks and improvements. Throw in At Wills and Dailies and a character becomes a deck of cards. Not only is this less accessible, but I would much rather my powers feel like special events, than use a different power every single round of the game.

I think it is very accessible, because all the tricks you can do fit into a short paragraph of text and you don't have to cross-reference them.
The complexity (and the potential for system mastery) arises when you use them all together during an encounter - but you don't reference the rules against each other (what can I do if I am hasted in difficult terrain and have cast True Strike), but look how the effects affect the table. (If I use this power to slide the opponent to that position, the Rogue can flank him. But if I use this power to push an opponent there, the Warlock can get out of the tight spot he got himself into...)

I also believe Wizards got a little too Resource-happy. In all, HP, XP, GP, Encounter and Daily powers, Action Points and Healing surges are all separate resources. Strategic use of action points is cool, but surely a better method than healing surges exist? Once again, having too many resources makes this game feel clunky. And daily powers recreate the same "spells per day" dilema previous editions had. Why not rest between each fight? I thought 4th was getting away from all of that. Apparently not.

Resource management is a game concept that makes the game more interesting. You must learn to manage your resources well to get through the day.
I am personally not so glad that the daily powers are that plenty, and I agree that it can facilitate the 15-minute adventure. But without daily powers, you lack the ability to get out of tight situations (if players made a mistake, or the DM just decided to give them a tough opponent), and if everything is encounter-based or at-will, character advancement becomes a bit... inflated. ("Hey Bob, do you still remember this morning, when we were like 1st level?")

I realize I could home brew many of these problems away, and I have. Unfortunately, in the end these kinds of rules won't be appearing in any 3rd party publication. This is because Wizards doesn't want you to fix ANYTHING. The GSL saw to that. Fair enough I'll just make my own rules, instead of buying theirs. I don't totally hate the game, I just feel like they broke as many things as they fixed. Same as it ever was. However, I'm personally getting sick of business decisions getting in the way of good design. Longer combat makes the game fit more nicely on the digital stage. More reliance on miniatures means more miniatures. More powers means more splat books. And a more restrictive GSL means there is nothing anyone can do about..That is unless you stay away altogether.

Well, the GSL is... suboptimal.
Otherwise, yes, the new rules might promote the ability to sell more minis and more splat books. But if they are also fun to use (which so far, they have been for me), I am fine with spending money on that. I am especially glad that the system seems to be so easy to expand - yes, there is work involved in creating a new class, but 4e supplements promise to contain more material that I can sue then 3e supplements ever have. Of course, that might be overly optimistic.

Finally, I'd like to add a special thanx to ENworld, for maintaining such a magnificent site. And I'd also like to apologize for making my first post a negative one. Clearly, I simply want to see who agrees with me. I also welcome any arguments to my points, and hold nothing against those who disagree. For years I've felt a love/hate relationship with WotC, but at the end of the day, no one can deny the substantial contributions they have made to our hobby.

Welcome on EN World.

 

[LeStryfe79]

WOW! Replies have been quick!

Personally, the 1st thing I did, was halve a monster's hp and maximize their damage. It saves on rolling and picks up the pace. But, as I stated, this was only one of my issues. I'd also like to say that I'm a bit of a power gamer (I DM and play). I thought I'd like the wide array of powers to chose from, but found many of them to be strikingly similar and uninteresting. It's possible that these creative decisions are necessary to make dnd profitable nowadays. I have no idea about that, so I can't completely say they made poor decisions. I can, however, say I don't like the decisions they made.

Also, I don't recall anybody saying SWSE was bad. Hmmm, I feel like this is a case of designers taking certain concepts too far...and creating new problems in the process..

 

[The Little Raven]

Yet, the 90 minute fight that just played out was more like 1 minute of in-game time!

9 minutes per round of combat? This strikes me as unfamiliarity or you guys just play combat really slow. In our session last night, we got through six fights in five hours, one of which took less than 10 minutes for 12 rounds.

Combat is way smoother than it was in 3rd Edition.

No matter how good your maps and miniatures are, they'll always be a poor representation for whats going on, specifically in today's age of video games and CG.

They show where the players, enemies, terrain features, and usable ground are in a clear and concise manner. Having to rely on a DM's memory, especially when it doesn't coincide with your own imagination, can cause problems. I've seen way more disputes about positioning because of reliance on "imagination."

This started in 3rd edition but was nowhere near as bad.

This started in OD&D, back in 1974.

There are far too many to chose from.

Ummm... what? You get 2 at-wills, 1 encounter, 1 daily at first level. Four is nowhere near "far too many."

In 4th, powers can only be selected once and are only useful for a limited time.

I suggest you read again, since there are plenty of powers that remain useful all the way to level 30.

Why not rest between each fight?

I assume you're talking about extended rests... and the answer is: you can't. You only benefit from one extended rest within a 24 hour span of time, so unless you plan on wasting an entire day to sleep after every fight, this isn't going to happen.

More powers means more splat books.

Any edition means more books. That's how you make money as a company and continue to pay your employees.

For years I've felt a love/hate relationship with WotC, but at the end of the day, no one can deny the substantial contributions they have made to our hobby.

Glad you feel that way, because the industry would suffer greatly without them.

Personally, the 1st thing I did, was halve a monster's hp and maximize their damage.

Careful with the HP, or you'll make monsters a less than meaningful encounter.

It's possible that these creative decisions are necessary to make dnd profitable nowadays.

D&D has been at least a decade behind modern game design for a while, and it really needed to catch up. The mechanics introduced in 4th Edition have existed in other games for a while.

Also, I don't recall anybody saying SWSE was bad.

Then you probably weren't paying attention around it's release. Aside from the "they just want money" comments, there were plenty of complaints about things like Second Wind and how Force powers work.