'Why I hate 'Lord of the Rings' '

[barsoomcore]

WizardDru, I respectfully disagree.

Killing people is murder in Middle-Earth, regardless of when where or how it's accomplished. Even in self-defense. It may be necessary, but it remains evil. It may not be as evil as senseless mayhem, but it's still evil.

The good guys do what they must, but they don't kid themselves that it's a good act.

The proof of Aragorn's kingship isn't his prowess in battle -- it's in his healing touch.

 

[WizarDru]

WizardDru, I respectfully disagree.

Killing people is murder in Middle-Earth, regardless of when where or how it's accomplished. Even in self-defense. It may be necessary, but it remains evil. It may not be as evil as senseless mayhem, but it's still evil.

The good guys do what they must, but they don't kid themselves that it's a good act.

The proof of Aragorn's kingship isn't his prowess in battle -- it's in his healing touch.

Lose that extra d.

I can accept that it's an evil act in Tolkien's world. But I'm not sure that I really see examples where Tolkien enforces that edict, per se. The Fellowship carves a swath through the south, but I don't really see Legolas, Gimli or Faramir suffering for fighting the good fight...unles they're redeemed by the selfless nature of their actions at the same time as they transgress, per se.

However, one thing that should be reinforced is the Right of Kings. Remember, Isildur cursed a whole race of men for not showing up at the Last Alliance. That certainly reinforces Isildur's power.

 

[barsoomcore]

Doh! Misspelling wizards' names -- never a good idea.



Yeah, I'm probably over-stating it -- more accurate would be to say that nowhere does Tolkien say that killing in self-defense ISN'T evil. And the possibility that Aragorn et al were committing evil acts in killing folks at Pelennor and elsewhere (though I don't think anywhere else were Men among the bad guys) can exist without bankrupting the story's basic morality.

AND the sensible nature of Elrond's decision not to commit evil in the presence of the Ring.

 

[Kesh]

Folks, I could be wrong, but...

At that point, weren't Elrond and Isildur ignorant of the ring's corruptive nature? After all, only Sauron had ever worn it at that point. All they knew was that it contained a large chunk of his magical power, and he could use it to control anyone wearing one of the Nine Rings.

Thus, Elrond wanted it destroyed, simply because it was a Thing Of Evil ™. At that point, he had no clue it would possess its bearer. He wanted to cast it back into Mt. Doom because it had been Sauron's focus of power... but he had no real reason to believe it could be used by anyone else.

Elrond could not have done anything else. There was no reason to attack Isildur based on what he knew, and Isildur had traditional right of ownership for the ring now. I doubt he used his powers of foresight in that few seconds... who would? And so, he had no idea the path he was setting the world on.

 

[KenM]

Folks, I could be wrong, but...

At that point, weren't Elrond and Isildur ignorant of the ring's corruptive nature? After all, only Sauron had ever worn it at that point. All they knew was that it contained a large chunk of his magical power, and he could use it to control anyone wearing one of the Nine Rings.

Thus, Elrond wanted it destroyed, simply because it was a Thing Of Evil ™. At that point, he had no clue it would possess its bearer. He wanted to cast it back into Mt. Doom because it had been Sauron's focus of power... but he had no real reason to believe it could be used by anyone else.

Elrond could not have done anything else. There was no reason to attack Isildur based on what he knew, and Isildur had traditional right of ownership for the ring now. I doubt he used his powers of foresight in that few seconds... who would? And so, he had no idea the path he was setting the world on.

Don't know if they explain it in the books. I got the sense Elrond knew what it was when he said the line " I was there when the will of men failed" in the movie, not sure if that was the excat line.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Thing about Tolkien's world is that there IS a definate Evil and Good. Orcs...are Evil. Simple as that. Killing them isn't murder because they are simply Evil. There aren't shades of Grey. Southrons and other of the Evil Men ARE Evil. Why? Dedicate yourself to Evil in a Black and White world, and you ARE Evil. So, it isn't murder.

Yes, this makes no sense in RL, but this isn't RL. This is Tolkien's Fantasy world. I'm not going to elabroate on the whole Isildur thing, because Storm Raven nailed it...at least three times.

 

[Klaatu B. Nikto]

There's a very simple reason Elrond didn't destroy the ring when he had the chance: he hadn't been upgraded into Agent Smith yet.

Seriously tho, I agree Elrond didn't want to take away the freedom of choice from Isildur, especially by an act of aggression, and the ring may have already tainted the human. If Elrond took the ring, he too would be tainted (definitely if he took it by force) and Isildur would lust after the ring much like Bilbo did after giving it to Frodo. Gollum, Bilbo and eventually Frodo were 'addicted' to the One Ring and like an addiction, only the person with the problem can solve it.

Also, IMO Elrond didn't take the ring for a similar reason Galadriel didn't when Frodo offered it to her: power corrupts. And what's the road to hell paved with?

We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."



I know Gandalf's comment was in the extended FotR DVD, but I don't remember whether it was in the theatrical release.

-RedShirt

 

[John Crichton]

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

I know Gandalf's comment was in the extended FotR DVD, but I don't remember whether it was in the theatrical release.

It was certainly in both versions. I loved that line.

 

[Storm Raven]

At that point, weren't Elrond and Isildur ignorant of the ring's corruptive nature? After all, only Sauron had ever worn it at that point. All they knew was that it contained a large chunk of his magical power, and he could use it to control anyone wearing one of the Nine Rings.

No. The elves became aware of the nature of the Ruling Ring the minute it was forged. They hid their rings and refused to wear them as long as Sauron held his. Magic in Tolkien appears to leave a "footprint" that can be read and understood by those who are "wise" in its ways. As soon as Sauron completed his Ring and put it on, the great elven lords immediately understood the nature of Sauron's creation. I am reasonably certain that Gil-Gilad would have told this to Elrond before he passed on his elven ring to him.