Skill Challenges just didn't do it for our group........nuff said.
I think Races & Classes is just a preview, and therefore not that interesting once the game is actually released.The question is how many even read those preview releases before 4E was released? As there were no rules I didn't pick them up.
I agree completely. The GM has to be framing scenes that the players will engage - including with clear stakes. (Combat has an advantage here, because the stakes are so obvious - fight or you'll die!)One of their biggest issues, but it's one that extends to every element of RPGs, is they require player buy-in to work. The players , at least some of them, need to want to achieve a particular goal. If they turn out not to, it may be time to short-circuit the planned activity in favour of something they actually want to do.
As I currently run them, gear occupies the same functional space as powers - it is a limited-use resource that players can draw upon to supplement skill checks, open up the space for skill checks, etc. I mentioned upthread the example of the wizard player using a possession power to open up the possibility of an Arcana check to learn a password. A parallel example involving gear occurred in a challenge where the chaos sorcerer was being pursued on his flying carpet by a flight of hobgoblin wyvern-riders. He was carrying a few vials of pure elemental fire that he had recovered from the Elemental Chaos, and he tried to use the energy of the fire to give his carpet a boost to speed. Once again, this opened up the space for an Arcana check - when his check failed - and was the 3rd failure in the challenge - the elemental fire exploded in his face and caused his carpet to crash.The third dimension is the choice of gear. You buy it, you plan for it, you find it; you can waste it on a single attempt or improve upon it. A mithril shovel is nice treasure if it allows you to excavate 1d10 points of dirt.
My approach is similar, although I will also use narration to try and force checks - not necessarily of any predefined skill, but narrating a situation (eg "The hobgoblins are about to catch you - what are you going to do?") that will provoke the player into having his/her PC do something in response.I let their actions determine where the skill rolls should be (and what skills be used).
I would say that, as I run them, skill challenges have two mechanical dimensions - skill checks, and power use (which includes action point expenditure, and which functionally plays a bit like BW artha). If I had to look for a third dimension, I would nominate something non-mechanical, namely, the pressure on the PCs (and therefore the players) generated by the narated fiction.I have noticed for some time now, such that the observation now approaches personal dogma*, that if you want interesting game resolution with player decision enabled, you need at least three truly independent dimensions in the mechanics. A damage roll separate from a success check is largely independent, whereas a single success or failure against a count has been rolled into the skill check itself.
What the third independent dimension should be in a D&D style game, I'm not sure. Burning Wheel uses "fate" (Artha) here, to good effect. Whatever it is, I do think it should be a player-driven resource, at the moment in the game, as skill checks and "damage" are mainly not.
Yes, this is what I'm questioning in questioning the damage approach.I'm afraid you need more to it than that. Otherwise, your "construction" challenge boils down to nothing more than "I dig with my shovel. 6 damage." every round - that's dull when it's the Fighter in combat; it's dull here.
Except a failed skill check costs the party 1 hp. So it's not two parties trying to wear one another down. It's one party engaging a situation and wearing down both pools depending on what happens.Isn't a 4E Skill Challenge exactly combat-by-attrition?
The challenge has 6 hit points. The party has three hit points. A successful skill check deals 1 point of damage. Last man standing wins.
IIRC, pemerton really only started playing D&D with 4E - so Unearthed Arcana is most likely an obscure rulebook to him.
I Playerd and GMed a lot of classic D&D (B/X, 1st ed AD&D). I played a lot of and GMed a tiny bit of 2nd ed.No, while he nearly completely skipped 3e (and most of 2e, I believe), he most certainly played before that (and particularly liked the original Oriental Adventures when it came out, if I remember correctly).
What you say here fits with my impression - I see complex skill checks as different from skill challenges as I understand them (although I do sometimes use 4/3 or even 6/3 skill challenges as complex skill checks).
This fits with the impression I have and that Mustrum's post seems to me to confirm. What you descirbe here hasn't got the dynamic narrative dimension of a skill challenge.I think you must be missing Unearthed Arcana which includes complex skill checks - the rule framework upon which 4e skill challenges were based. UA even correctly highlighted the mathematical issues requiring multiple success causes.
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An analogous example from MegaTraveller might be going into Jumpspace while being pursued by Vargr corsairs. The pilot tries to open up a safe lead so they can make it to 100 diameters from the planet's gravity well and safe jump entry territory, the navigator tries to plot the jump vector while under full thrust, the engineers try to squeeze more speed out of the thrusters and tune up the jump reactor. Too many failures and they may get a jump incident.
What would the DC be? And what would the consequences of failure be?Is a Con check or Fortitude save somehow not appropriate here? I don't see why the skill challenge makes that possible while 3e/PF fails to do so.
What did you use for a DC, and how did you arrive at that particular number yourself?What would the DC be?
The same as 4E? Find something else to do?And what would the consequences of failure be?
the metagame-driven narration-of-complications dynamic that a skill challenge has. It's more about succeeding simply by accumulating a set of successful tasks.
4e gives me a chart of level-appropriate DCs, so I used that. To the best of my knowledge 3E doesn't have such a thing.What did you use for a DC, and how did you arrive at that particular number yourself?
This relates back to my comment in the OP about mechanics that support (i) "genre logic" narration, and (ii) a focus on the scene. 4e's approach to injury and healing is very liberal in this respect. 3E/PFs is not.The same as 4E?
It may not be.Wait, how is that different from how I did/do skills in any other edition?