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Why I really like D&D.

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I must say, hanging out on this forum is proving to be hilarious, but enough of my human failings. In the last thread I participated in, which was shut down, somebody took umbrage to my lampooning of the notion of D&D4 being used to simulate Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I was asked what my favorite edition was, so that I could have this version lampooned in retaliation (in a childish way - yay!)

The thing is this: I don't have a favorite edition.

I was introduced to roleplaying via D&D - the Red Box basic set in the mid-80s - and largely moved onto AD&D with my school chums within weeks. We couldn't always afford the books so we made up a lot of stuff on the fly. I never played AD&D 2nd edition, largely because I discovered other games (Warhammer, Stormbringer, WoD's Mage mainly in the 90s), and also because I didn't really feel at the time that the rules were logical in the D&D game.

When 3rd Edition came about, I was largely esconced in the Mage game, and was also getting into other games like Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Pendragon and especially Traveller. I played a lot of other one shot games (at least 50) in conferences, and in the last few years have also gotten into RuneQuest.

When 4th edition came out, I didn't care for it. But to be honest, it wasn't any different to any of the previous editions really. If I want a really well designed fantasy game, on which I could simulate fantasy literature and movies, I would choose RuneQuest right now. It simply does a better job.

So why do I like D&D? Let's be clear, I do like D&D, and have played lots of games (including long term campaigns) of 1st edition and 3rd Edition and at least a few one-shots of 4th edition.

I like it because the game has brio - and support. Getting a RuneQuest game together requires some effort to find players - and they'll usually say "That's cool, but I prefer GURPS" or "Let's play Savage Worlds! instead". You'll spend half your time debating about which game system is best. With D&D there has always been a guarantee that everybody will just say "cool, lets play". And when you are playing, you can forget about the illogical rules (and even the illogical narrative of most adventures) and just get on with the gaming fun. I like D&D, above all, because it's social.

This is what concerns me more than anything about the Edition wars. D&D is in danger of losing it's universality with the whole 4E/3.5(Pathfinder) split. This has an impact on the whole hobby - without a unifying game to act as a flagship, there is no avenue to move onto other games, should you want.

Where people would just tolerate rubbish D&D rules (and/or just house rule it themselves to their own sense of perfection) we now have a situation that all the pseudo experts will spend more time arguing about which game system is best, rather than just playing the damn thing. If I am going to make one criticism of 4e it's that it has been divisive - and that goes to the very core of the game's fundamental appeal in my view.

So, in short, I laud the attempts to unify the fan base with 5e. It won't be easy to reach a compromise - but it would be nice to know that people would be willing to compromise in the first instance. Ultimately, all rpgs require co-operation to make them work.
 
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Dannager

First Post
I must say, hanging out on this forum is proving to be hilarious, but enough of my human failings. In the last thread I participated in, which was shut down, somebody took umbrage to my lampooning of the notion of D&D4 being used to simulate Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I was asked what my favorite edition was, so that I could have this version lampooned in retaliation (in a childish way - yay!)

Since that was me, I'll chip in here - it doesn't really matter what your favorite edition is. That was the point. Literally every edition of D&D (and nearly every other tabletop roleplaying game out there) can be similarly lampooned, with very little effort. They can all be framed in a way that makes it look like they are terrible at portraying a given fantasy scene. Similarly, they can all be framed in a way that makes it look like they are portraying that same fantasy scene perfectly. So it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to pop into a thread in order to cast aspersions on 4e by making it seem like it can't handle portraying the Balrog attack. You're not attacking 4e. You're attacking D&D in general, and then pretending that only 4e has the supposed flaws you cast into focus.

How about let's just not do that?
 

Criticising a game is not criticising a group of people.

So how about I just express my feelings about a game, and you stop taking it personally?
 

Raith5

Adventurer
But your expression of your feelings had a point didnt they? Even though I found the depiction humorous, It was not a free flowing random depiction of roleplaying that attempted to stand aside from the debates in inhabit these forums!
 

But your expression of your feelings had a point didnt they? Even though I found the depiction humorous, It was not a free flowing random depiction of roleplaying that attempted to stand aside from the debates in inhabit these forums!
It was a response to somebody who had asserted that 4e was well designed towards the simulating of fantasy literature, specifically Lord of the Rings.

Personally, I think this view is hilarious - for exactly the reasons I alluded to in my lampooning.

There are fantasy RPGs that handle Lord of the Rings well - as above, I'd probably use RuneQuest, although The One Ring obviously springs to mind. I'd also give it a good stab with an earlier version of D&D, or a retroclone like Castles and Crusades - with loose, light rules that don't get in the way. I do also note that some groups I knew did run Middle Earth settings with 3e.

However, 4e is probably not a good choice, as it is too 'tightly' bound to the rules conventions it sets up for itself. That was the point I was trying to make.

Anyone who has followed my posting history will note that I found the whole D20 "We are the rpg industry!" monotheism hilarious about 10 years ago also.
 
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Texicles

First Post
This is what concerns me more than anything about the Edition wars.... This has an impact on the whole hobby

I said something similar to this in a thread somewhere around here not too long ago. Essentially, failure to recognize that Edition X,Y or X had something to offer, despite whatever shortcomings the observer may find (sometimes known as throwing the baby out with the bath water), will, imo, have an ultimately more detrimental effect on D&D and RPGs as a whole than any of the actual, specific shortcomings of said edition.


If I am going to make one criticism of 4e it's that it has been divisive...

This is where I think you're running afoul in your argumentation. 4e has not actually been divisive. Those who view the edition as "not D&D," "not an RPG," "an MMO board game," etc. and refuse to acknowledge that such sentiments are merely their opinion are actually divisive.

There's nothing divisive about debating the merits of this or that rule in this or that edition. Characterizing an entire edition with hyperbole and fallacy is not productive, it's divisive.


I'm not attacking you or even whatever you said that caused you to take some heat (I must have missed that post), but I am responding to what I see in your OP in this thread.
 

This is where I think you're running afoul in your argumentation. 4e has not actually been divisive. Those who view the edition as "not D&D," "not an RPG," "an MMO board game," etc. and refuse to acknowledge that such sentiments are merely their opinion are actually divisive.

There's nothing divisive about debating the merits of this or that rule in this or that edition. Characterizing an entire edition with hyperbole and fallacy is not productive, it's divisive.


I'm not attacking you or even whatever you said that caused you to take some heat (I must have missed that post), but I am responding to what I see in your OP in this thread.

Nope. This has to be asserted. 4e has been divisive for the D&D community - fact. Note, I am not making any value judgements about the game itself in that statement, nor am I looking to pick sides. However, the reality is that the whole process of it's design, marketing and even outlook has lead to the D&D community being split almost in half between 4e and Pathfinder (with a bunch of other variations in there too).

The whole reason why 5e has a stated goal of being a 'Unity Edition' is addressing that fact. And actually, you can't really make the same claim about previous editions on the matter. When 3e and the whole d20/OGL thing came out it had a galvanizing effect - with loads of fans coming out of the woodwork, and 3rd Party publishers all designing d20 products by the bucketload. This very website was set up on the basis of what 3e did at that time, and again I am not making a qualitative statement about the game by saying this. It's goals for the brand were simply more inclusive than those of 4e.
 

TwinBahamut

First Post
Nope. This has to be asserted. 4e has been divisive for the D&D community - fact.
You know, adding the word "fact" as the end of a statement does not actually turn that statement into a fact. Nor does simply repeating a statement that has been challenged actually do anything to defend that statement from challenge...

Anyways, I've argued here on ENWorld that the entirety of the current 4E/Pathfinder spilt is rooted back in differing opinions that emerged during the 3E era, before 4E was even announced. As such, blaming the split entirely on 4E isn't really the only possible conclusion that can be made from looking at the actual facts concerning the split fanbase. This is especially true given the scarcity of reliable information proving that the Pathfinder/4E split is any more significant than the split caused by any previous edition change.

In short, nothing you say is fact. It's just guesswork that is probably more influenced by WotC and Paizo marketing than actual truths.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You could lampoon D&D (of any edition) doing just about any fantasy story, because players, all criticisms of various eds aside, will 'think out side the box' (which is to say, /nothing/ like heroes) and find quick/easy/cynical solutions.

So PC Gandalf has his eagle friends fly Frodo straight to Mt Doom the same day he explains about the ring in the Shire, and Frodo, perpelexed but not worn down by the Ring yet drops it in. Game over, next epic villain please, Mr DM. ;)

...

I remember an old Dragon article entitled "Gandalf was a 5th Level Magic User" which made a pretty decent case for the title - Gandalf just had a Staff of the Magi, he only ever cast spells like Pyrotechnics, Light, Hold Portal, or Knock (in LotR - in the Hobbit he cast Fire Seeds, which is a high level Druid Spell, and pulled something that got some trolls petrified), he kept using a sword in real fights: he was actually a two-class Fighter/Magic-user whose magic-user levels hadn't surpassed his old fighter levels yet!

Of course, fans of the Silmarilion know that Gandalf was actually a Maiar - an 'outsider' in 3e terms - an 'immortal' in 4e terms. In 3e he might have class levels, in 4e he might have been an Elite Controller (Leader). :shrug: Either way, he wouldn't have been a PC, but a DM-controlled plot device, whose purpose would be cat-herding them onto the rails.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Nope. This has to be asserted. 4e has been divisive for the D&D community
It takes two to tango. 4e wasn't divisive. 3e wasn't divisive. Even the OGL wasn't divisive, though it was a great tool for those who chose the 3.5 side.

No, the divisiveness was in the community, itself.

Note, I am not making any value judgements about the game itself in that statement, nor am I looking to pick sides.
Looks like you have. Or you're just looking to bait both sides.

When 3e and the whole d20/OGL thing came out it had a galvanizing effect - with loads of fans coming out of the woodwork, and 3rd Party publishers all designing d20 products by the bucketload.
Nod. The OGL was key to that. D&D had been the 200lb gorrilla for the entire history of the RPG hobby, but it was one sick gorrilla by the time TSR went belly-up. Going open-source with the OGL revitalized it, because it turned competitors into partners. Given the choice of toiling to carve out a tiny niche in a crowded market, or sell some d20 game or suplement to legions of D&D fans, the choice for most publishers - even a few that had been competing as well with D&D as anyone ever had - was a no-brainer.

It's goals for the brand were simply more inclusive than those of 4e.
The OGL was inclusive by nature. 3.5, though, targeted a particular style of play, the style that demands "rewards for system mastery" as Monte Cook put it. It's a good style to target, because it's adherents tend to buy a lot of books (always looking for an edge). It's akin to the style of play that M:tG fosters, and M:tG is quite profitable. It worked well enough for a while, but it also drew a tremendous amount of criticism, and 4e addressed those criticisms (which means it no longer supported that style nearly so well). That's when it turned out that 3.5 target market didn't just like to buy books - they could be /very/ vocal, as well.... que the edition wars, Essentials, and the premature death of 4e.

Ironically, in the meantime, another rather obvious market has perked up - retroclones. D&D was a fad among kids in the 80s, and those kids (I'm one of 'em) are now in their 40s, having mid-life crises and (if lucky enough to have a job) enjoying their peak earning years. It's a classic formula for success, and 5e does not appear to be ignoring it. After fighting hard for four years to destroy 4e, the 3.5/Pathfinder faction may find themselves not getting the system-mastery-rewarding 5e they want - they've already lost the guy that gave them 3.0, Monte Cook left the design team.

Of course, the OGL and Pathfinder aren't going anywhere.
 

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