D&D 5E Why I Think D&DN is In Trouble

[Halivar]

Perhaps I should go with Monte Cook inventing something he called "Passive Perception".

That was the moment I began to have serious misgivings about the leadership of D&DN. I, for one, am glad Monte left to go work on Numenera, for two reasons:
1) He made the very excellent Numenera, which I am happy to have on my gaming shelf, and
2) He's not working on D&DN.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This was common from Monte Cook. He would ask questions like, "How should we solve X?" and the response was, "Did this guy even pick up a 4E PHB and read it?" Don't ask me for specifics. This was a year ago and my Google-fu is weak.

Monte rather set the stage in his first Legends and Lore article

That's the straightforward, active perception issue, but what about what I like to call "passive perception?" You know: when the PCs aren't actually looking for something, but it stands to reason that some one or more of them might just have a chance of noticing the hidden thing.
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Never mind that 4e had been using Passive Perception since 2008. I'd forgotten that one. Reinventing the wheel and claiming it as his.

 

[Neonchameleon]

That was the moment I began to have serious misgivings about the leadership of D&DN. I, for one, am glad Monte left to go work on Numenera, for two reasons:
1) He made the very excellent Numenera, which I am happy to have on my gaming shelf, and
2) He's not working on D&DN.

I'm not - because I suspect that this was the cause. And no one deserves that sort of thing to be suggested.

 

[Halivar]

I'm not - because I suspect that this was the cause. And no one deserves that sort of thing to be suggested.

I don't think one offensive email from what appears to be (from the email) a crank would do it. Monte made it sound like he was very dissatisfied, and decided to leave unilaterally. I forget who commented on it, but someone at WotC mentioned being very surprised at the move.

 

[Dausuul]

1. Lack of online excitement/hype 6 months out from release.

We've had a playtest going for over a year, and it was clear from the start that the release date pretty much had to be 2014 if it wasn't 2013. As far as I know, the marketing push hasn't started yet. So why would there be online excitement?

2. A fragmented player base.

True, this is an issue for 5E. Then again, 5E has some advantages that shouldn't be discounted. In particular, it has an opportunity to exploit Pathfinder's greatest weakness--the need to maintain backward compatibility with 3E.

One of PF's big selling points is that you can keep using your 3E material, and Paizo can't abandon that without losing a huge chunk of players. But that severely limits their ability to innovate on the mechanics, which means that Pathfinder players who aren't heavily invested in 3E might be interested in a game that fixes some of 3E's system issues while retaining the conceptual core of D&D.

Obviously, 5E would be in a better spot today if the 4E/PF split had never happened. But if that were the case, 5E probably wouldn't be happening yet.

As for the OSR, I don't see that as an issue for 5E. Sure, some people have abandoned Wizards-era D&D for a return to TSR-style gaming. But the flip side of that is that there are many groups that never got on board with 3E in the first place, and with 5E making a deliberate effort to be "old-school friendly," some of them might be open to making the jump at last. I'd say it's a wash.

5. Lack of big name designers. A popular designers name will sell copies of an RPG. Gygax back in the day, Monte Cook and Numenera these days. D&DN lacks a big name like Gygax, Mentzer, Cook (either one) who have designed a popular edition of D&D.

Oh, come on. Are you seriously claiming that it was Gary Gygax's name that sold AD&D, or Monte Cook's name that sold 3E? Certainly Cook had some successes ("Dark Space") before joining TSR, but no more than Mearls had before joining Wizards ("Iron Heroes"). Cook became a big name after 3E was published, just like Gygax after AD&D. D&D sold them.

6. D&DN lacks a clear focus and target audience.

It's not at all evident that a "clear focus" is a good thing for D&D. 4E tried having a clear focus and bombed. D&D is most successful when it's versatile and open to customization. On that front, 5E looks like being the best edition since AD&D.

8. Forum numbers on wizards.com forums are way down it seems. The 4E forums are very quiet, the FR forums are almost a ghost town.

That's what happens when you stop releasing product. Your company forums go quiet.

10. Lack of focus in the play test packets. Put bluntly the play test was all over the place.

Play. Test. As in, you give a system to people to play, as a way to test the system. It's about collecting information, and you don't collect any information by doing the same test twice. This complaint is just ridiculous.

 

[Dausuul]

I think an edition war would be a step up from what we have now, since that at least would show some passion.

On the contrary. We've seen a barrage of anti-5E threads in this forum lately, this one being a good example. They've been more passive-aggressive than open edition war, but that might have to do with the fact that the mods are known to be un-fond of open edition warring (and some of those threads have been closed when "passive-aggressive" became "just plain aggressive").

Especially as they've essentially sacrificed better than a year's worth of product sales, I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that WOTC could have made more money with a 4.5e than they will with D&DN.

They did that. It was called Essentials. I thought it was a big improvement over 4E classic, but the market didn't agree.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't think one offensive email from what appears to be (from the email) a crank would do it. Monte made it sound like he was very dissatisfied, and decided to leave unilaterally. I forget who commented on it, but someone at WotC mentioned being very surprised at the move.

That email was from the RPGPundit who is a paid consultant on D&D Next. When the people who are effectively your co-workers are sending emails like that and not getting the boom lowered on them it's time to leave.

 

[DaveMage]

I thought the scuttlebutt was that Monte left because WotC forbid its employees to do outside projects.

 

[jodyjohnson]

There's an interview out there with Jim Butcher who indicates that WOTC had approached him about rebooting Dragonlance for 4e. He indicates it was derailed by sales concerns with 4th edition that they hadn't expected. I get the impression the intention was there to support settings like they had in previous editions, but judging from what Butcher said it sounds like there was some major event that caused WOTC to go into emergency mode.

Emergency mode:
5e Pre-development: Jan 2011-December 2011 with Mike Mearls and Monte Cook polls and articles.
5e Closed Testing: Dec 2011-May 2012 with friends and family Alpha
5e Open Playtesting: May 2012-October 2013 (Alpha continues)
Announce release but not product for 5e: Dec 2013
Release: Summer 2014

If that is "Emergency mode" my children would have been born at my wife's work desk.

Maybe they just decided that setting fans don't like RSE used to justify re-printing the setting and otherwise setting is fluff and edition neutral. Which would match with every DnD panel for the last 3 years.

 

[VictorC]

I thought the scuttlebutt was that Monte left because WotC forbid its employees to do outside projects.

I thought Monte himself said this...

but I don't exactly remember.