Why I'm done with 4e

[Soraios]

I've been a player in a 4e campaign since the release of the edition. Prior to that, I DM'd and played extensively in a series of 3.x campaigns. I have tried to adapt to the new system (for the sake of my friend who DMs it), but I can't keep playing 4e; the game itself is driving me crazy.

I don't think 3.x is perfect. High-level encounters, for instance, can be very complicated. But 3.x is superior to 4e in these ways:

* The rules are in the background. The rules are not constantly superimposing themselves on my in-game experience. Example: 4e marking.

* High level of player creativity in character design. This only increased as new 3.x materials were released. 4e suffers from "sameyness" from the PHB onward.

* Vancian magic. I prefer it. It's part of D&D's core identity. 3e honors it (while giving some options for other paths); 4e pays lip service to it (for wizards, anyway) but essentially reinvents the magic system, to its detriment.

* 4e has a very artificial feel. The labels/roles are a big part of that; striker, artillery, leader, minion ... where is the mystery and wonder? The rules encourage metagame thinking and take me out of the game-world and into wargamer mode.

Unfortunately, I don't see how I can ignore these problems. With 3.x's bloat issues (particularly for prestige classes), the solution was simply to exercise DM control and exclude the material you didn't want. 4e's problems are inherent. You can't play 4e without being smacked in the face with design issues every single session.

As a side comment, while I agree that 4e is certainly easier for a newbie to grasp due to its simplicity, if my first exposure to D&D was 4e I'd probably say to myself after a few sessions, "why not play WoW instead?" IMO, Wizards forgot why people play D&D in the first place.

I want to play a game of D&D that emphasizes a blend of role-playing, story-telling, exploration, adventure, and yes, exciting combat. I would venture a guess that most of the folks on this forum want the same, though arguably in different proportions. So I want a game system that allows me to do that with minimal intrusiveness. I don't want to feel like I'm playing a boardgame or MMO. For these reasons, I'm starting a pathfinder campaign.

 

[avin]

Can i have your stuff?

"why not play WoW instead?"

I can agree with some of your arguments but tell me, do you have any level 80 char on Wow? Being a Wow player myself I don't find 4E as similar as Wow like people use to complain.

Meta and "artificial feel" are things 5E would have to handle to get a bit closer to old D&D... but roleplaying and storytelling, in my opinion, are easier to find away from any edition of Dungeons & Dragons...

 

[pascale]

Pathfinder is awsome sauce.

I've been wanting to play one for some time, but can not find a DM for it. I DM a PF eberron game, and joking threaten to kill off the players so that one them can take over DMing, and I can play a Pathfinder chronicaller...lol. Enjoy your game and good luck.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Pathfinder is awsome sauce.

I've been wanting to play one for some time, but can not find a DM for it. I DM a PF eberron game, and joking threaten to kill off the players so that one them can take over DMing, and I can play a Pathfinder chronicaller...lol. Enjoy your game and good luck.

The horrible fate of many DMs - they only get to run in the setting and game system that they actually want to play.

As a former Dragonstar and Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes DM I feel with you.

 

[pascale]

Can i have your stuff?



I can agree with some of your arguments but tell me, do you have any level 80 char on Wow? Being a Wow player myself I don't find 4E as similar as Wow like people use to complain.

I find this interesting. As a casual observer of WoW I notice the simmiliarities right away. (Treasure parcels, marking/agro, recharge times on powers, perception/surprise rules - monster sight radiouse, the artwork, etc) But actually hardcore players say they don't see it.

Now I say I'm a casual observer of WoW as i do not play it, I tried got a toon up to level 8 (Yippy-skippy, I know) I used to work in a LAN gaming center and that was the game of chioce, my sister in law and her bf are addicted to it, so I watched them play when i spent a month staying with them.

Yet, the wow players with level 80 toons say they don't see the simmiliarities at all.

On that note sisters B/F with a level 80 toon loves 4e, but wants to play pathfinder. Sister in law with a few level 80 toons could take or level 4e, and would rather play pathfinder...wonder what that means?

 

[Anand]

Can i have your stuff?

All my players are WoW players, as myself as a DM. We play WoW together often, but we still enjoy getting together on occasional Saturdays to play D&D (4e, nowadays). It is a very different experience.

 

[wedgeski]

Maybe we could just have a meta-thread, "Edition War", and merge all these threads into it? A thousand pages of pointless arguing over whose edition sucks the most. It would probably become self-aware by this time next year.

 

[FireLance]

I happen to enjoy 4e and I don't agree with the points that you raised, but I also don't think that it would be productive to discuss them in this thread. However, if anyone else is experiencing the same issues and would like advice on how to address them, please feel free to start another thread. I would be happy to give my views there.

Even though you have decided that it is not the game system for you, I appreciate that you gave it a fair try. I hope you enjoy your Pathfinder campaign.

 

[avin]

I find this interesting. As a casual observer of WoW I notice the simmiliarities right away. (Treasure parcels, marking/agro, recharge times on powers, perception/surprise rules - monster sight radiouse, the artwork, etc) But actually hardcore players say they don't see it.

Now I say I'm a casual observer of WoW as i do not play it, I tried got a toon up to level 8 (Yippy-skippy, I know) I used to work in a LAN gaming center and that was the game of chioce, my sister in law and her bf are addicted to it, so I watched them play when i spent a month staying with them.

Yet, the wow players with level 80 toons say they don't see the simmiliarities at all.

On that note sisters B/F with a level 80 toon loves 4e, but wants to play pathfinder. Sister in law with a few level 80 toons could take or level 4e, and would rather play pathfinder...wonder what that means?

There's no treasure parcels on Wow. Pereception / surprise compared to aggro gradius? The only thing I can agree is recharge of encounters/cooldowns, because "dailies" exist since ever on D&D.

Having a low level toon and watching friends playing are very different from levelling 1-80.

Most people who compare both games seem to be people who has no much Wow experience...

 

[Thanlis]

I find this interesting. As a casual observer of WoW I notice the simmiliarities right away. (Treasure parcels, marking/agro, recharge times on powers, perception/surprise rules - monster sight radiouse, the artwork, etc) But actually hardcore players say they don't see it.

Well, you know. In D&D, I don't play more or less solo for the first umpteen levels. I also don't have some sort of global chat channel going all the time while I'm soloing. Nobody yells over to me and asks me to join their guild whenever I start my solo D&D sessions. I don't randomly run into other players while I'm out killing monsters to gather supplies to make a magical sword.

The terminology's got MMO aspects to it, which is undoubtedly intentional -- it's reminiscent of OD&D's miniatures terminology. It makes it a more appealing game for MMO players who haven't done tabletop. I find it's really easy to look past that terminology and see the differences, though, both in the flippant logic I just used and in deeper ways.

The OP stated a number of preferences as absolute facts. With the exception of Vancian magic, every one of those should be preceded with the words "To me," because it's self-evident that there are also players who would disagree with them. But, hey, it wouldn't be the Edition Wars if there weren't players of both editions willing to state their opinions and preferences as if they were holy writ.

So sorry the game didn't work out for you! Thanks for letting the world know; hope you didn't think it was going to change anyone's opinion either way.