Why is Firestorm the best 19th level control spell?

[Old Gumphrey]

I've been trying to figure it out, and I can't. Clerics have hands down the best control spell at this level. Evard's can potentially keep people tied down if you keep pushing them back in, but its huge area makes it unwieldy, since it affects your allies. The rest of the spells really don't even come close. Firestorm does more damage, more ongoing damage, it has the largest area, and it doesn't affect your allies.

What does the community think about this?

 

[DemonLord57]

I disagree, mainly because I don't consider Firestorm "control". It does damage, pure and simple. Evard's Black Tentacles is a very nice spell from what I can tell (haven't played with it). It stops the opponent's movement until a succesful save and does okay damage to them while they are immobilized, and you can try to re-immobilize creatures that end up there (whether because they couldn't escape the difficult terrain or because they were pushed back in). Sure, it doesn't do as much damage (I have to admit, Firestorm does a crap ton of damage), but it has control to it.

Example of use: Stop 3 melee creatures in their tracks (dealing damage to them), and deal with the rest of the encounter before plinking at them at range and waiting for them to die, and pushing them back in when they happen to get out.
Thunderwave is a very nice spell when combined with area effects like this IMO. Hell, if the enemies in the encounter are placed well enough, you can just push all of the enemies into the area. The spell also gets a lot better with Spell Focus and/or orb mastery.

I agree Firestorm is good, perhaps better, but it is not control.

 

[Plane Sailing]

For the same reason that Clerics have the best 29th level area damage spell too? Compare Astral Storm with Meteor Swarm and remind me which one is supposed to be the controller and which is supposed to be the leader, eh?

 

[Zurai]

The thing is, the PHB defines controllers in large part by their ability to deal damage to many enemies at once (as opposed to strikers, who deal damage to single targets). As such, massive AOE damage spells are more-or-less defined by the game as control spells.

 

[Falling Icicle]

From the article http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/20080613a

"Like a few other classes, the 4E wizard has a narrower range of power options than the 3rd Edition wizard. Some of these powers are coming later (summoning and illusions, for example), while others simply aren’t appropriate for the character role. Wizards don’t have a lot of party-buffing spells, for example; that’s more appropriate for leaders than for controllers. Taking those spells off the wizard list helps keep that class from overshadowing other characters in the party (see the Cleric, above)."

And then, from the PHB:

"Controllers deal with large numbers of enemies at the same time. They favor offense over defense, using powers that deal damage to multiple foes at once, as well as subtler powers that weaken, confuse or delay their foes."

So yeah, Wizards can't have buffing spells anymore because that would step on the Cleric's toes and his precious leader role. How dare a Wizard want to do such a thing! But it's perfectly okay for a Cleric to not only have plenty of AoE spells (a defining part of the Wizard's "controller" role), but the Cleric's AoEs are often better than those the Wizard gets! Not a single Cleric AoE has the risk of hitting allies, so the Cleric has an easier time being a "controller" than the Wizard does, who often has to hold off on or carefully aim his spells, at least until he's epic level and can get the Spell Accuracy feat so that he doesn't blow up his friends. And what about the other part of the "controller" role? Weakening, confusing and delaying enemies? Well guess what, Clerics can do those things too.

Yeah. This makes alot of sense. /sarcasm

 

[Blackbrrd]

There is nothing different from Dnd 3.5 where the cleric got firestorm at level 8.

The cleric has good area damage spells, just like the wizard, but fewer of them. I don't see the problem.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

There is nothing different from Dnd 3.5 where the cleric got firestorm at level 8.

The cleric has good area damage spells, just like the wizard, but fewer of them. I don't see the problem.

Well, the problem is that they are still better then the options for the Cleric.

The question - maybe do they actually have to be better? After all, the Cleric picking these powers loses actual leading power, and if he can't heal or improve his allies defenses or attacks, he is not fulfilling his original role?

Still not an argument for letting him have this powers in the first place.

 

[theNater]

Firestorm is the best 19th level area damage spell. But let's compare it to the two level 19 zones wizards can produce, Evard's Black Tentacles and Cloudkill.

Size/range: Firestorm is a burst 5 within 10, Evard's is a burst 4 within 10, and Cloudkill is a burst 5 within 20. Cloudkill wins here for its largest range, with Firestorm taking a close second. Evard's smaller size at the closer range puts it in third.

Targets: Firestorm wins this category hands down, as the only one of the three that won't hit allies. Cloudkill comes in a distant second, as the wizard will have the opportunity to move it off of any allies before they begin their turn in it.

Initial damage: 5d10 for Firestorm, 2d10 for Evard's, 1d10 for Cloudkill. Another solid win for Firestorm. Firestorm also does half damage on a miss, and is the only one which does so.

Additional effects on hit: Evard's will immobilize those it hits. This category goes to it, as the only status effect available.

Ongoing damage: Firestorm and Cloudkill cause 1d10 damage to each target in the zone each round. Evard's causes 1d10 to immobilized targets each round, and has a 50% chance to cause 2d10 to non-immobilized targets. Call it a tie.

Zone: Evard's wins here, as it is the only zone that has any effect other than damage. It turns the zone into difficult terrain.

Escapability: Most creatures can get out of Firestorm easily. A concerted effort on the part of the enemies can move the conflict point to a part of the battlefield not in the zone. Evard's is much harder, as a creature with speed 6 in the center cannot get out with a single walk action. They can run, granting combat advantage, or use their standard action for more movement. And that assumes that they aren't subject to the immobilize effect on their turn. It's easy to get out of Cloudkill, but hard to stay out, as the wizard can move it up to three spaces on his turn. Note that a creature at the center with 6 speed can't get away from it with even with a run. They must double move to be certain to be clear of the effect. Even if they do get clear, they have to keep moving if they don't want the zone to catch up to them. The immobilization effect makes this go to Evard's, but Cloudkill is a close second.

So which is best? Well, Firestorm is best for blasting the snot out of the enemy. Cloudkill is the best at keeping the enemies from entrenching into a defensive position. Evard's is the best at creating a region of sticky, tentacular horribleness. It's all a matter of taste, really.

 

[WOLead]

I'm tempted to say that Evard's Black Tentacles is the better Controller spell between the choice of Evard's and Firestorm, especially if you have fighter style help.

Firestorm does 5d10+Wis to an 11x11 area of enemies only, followed by 1d10+Wis damage when the enemy starts their turn in the zone. The 11x11 zone can be sustained by a minor action to allow enemies in the zone to take another 1d10+Wis damage on the start of their next turn again.

Evard's does 2d10+Int and immobilize(Save Ends) to a 9x9 area, enemy and ally alike. The zone is difficult terrain, and when you sustain the power with a minor action, you either do 1d10 damage to creatures currently immobilized or repeat the original attack against creatures currently not immobilized.

While Evard's is harder to use to not hurt your allies, it is basically insane when trying to escape it. Not only do you have to make a saving throw to escape immobilize, but you have to dodge the attack that comes in between your next turn as well to escape being immobilized again. Then you have to escape the zone of difficult terrain that basically halves your movement with no shifting techniques unless you are an elf or have the Epic feat. Thats just trying to deal with the spell, since a Rogue or a Fighter can intercept you on the outside and keep sliding/pushing you either back into the effect or further back into the effect. Drop it on a melee bunch of enemies, and they become sitting ducks. Ranged classes can still attack back, but they are unlikely to move due to immobilization and will most likely loose any stealth as they do not make a stealth check with their lack of movement.

Firestorm does more damage, but does nothing to stop the enemy from leaving the effect. Melee are still a problem, Ranged classes can still move and hide or even leave the effect, and so on. Nice damage, but the Leader role suddenly becomes much more tempting to attack to stop the effect. And its easy to get to the leader compared to a bunch of enemies in Evard's.

It also doesn't hurt that if the enemies in Evard's do break out of it and go after you, a Wizard can still push them right back in with Thunderlance or Thunderwave. If they even know where you are as a Wizard could use his Utility spell Blur and be invisible when 5 or more squares away from his victims.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Remember that saves are made at the end of a creature's turn.
Therefore, you can pass the save vs. evard's, but your turn is over, and you don't get a chance to walk out before it gets an attack to re-grab you.