Why is it a bad thing to optimise?

[TheUltramark]

OP :
Is it bad to optimise?

answer: I'd say its better than arguing for 6 pages over the definition of plot

 

[Plane Sailing]

catsclaw227, Vyvyan Basterd (and anyone else) - let's just say that there were some misunderstandings, draw a line under it and get on with the topic in question.

OK?

Thanks

 

[prosfilaes]

Personally, I always find the demands of optimization to be a big part of building a character. I've felt a couple times in my gaming career that my character was ineffectual and want to avoid that. I'm a bit stressed about taking a catfolk favored soul instead of a human cleric in my current campaign, even though I know I should in theory be able to outclass many other characters, like the half-giant samurai. Conveniently for me, it's unlikely anyone will discuss my character as long as I'm sitting next to the wizard player who persists in ignoring the ECL on his race and other cheating.

 

[ExploderWizard]

OP :
Is it bad to optimise?

answer: I'd say its better than arguing for 6 pages over the definition of plot

If you don't define the plot, how can it be optimized?

 

[Hussar]

I think I gave this answer a while ago, but, I've never really had a problem with repeating myself.

The hyper-optimized, one dimensional character is a problem. It's no different than a Mary Sue in fiction - it' s the character that can do everything, and do it better than everyone else. It's a spotlight hog and in a game which does revolve quite a bit around the group, this is a problem.

OTOH, the one armed peasant with a spork is every bit as much of a problem. While a Rinsewind (if you're a Pratchett fan) is funny in fiction, in the game it's just as much of a spotlight hog as the John Carter. For one, it doesn't fit into the game particularly well because it doesn't fit into the group. Why is the group dragging around this dead weight? Generally the only reason is because the dead weight has the glowing PC halo floating above his head.

One of the biggest problems I see though, is when people who don't have a strong grasp on the mechanics start criticising other players for being "overpowered". I mean, that one shot character from several pages back that had to burn a daily, a couple of other powers and succeed on three attacks in order to do gobs of damage got called a powergamer.

Until you start looking at the math.

Sure, about 1 in 8 attempts (given a 50:50 chance of success) he's going to beat the living crap out of something. But, he can only try this once per adventuring day. So, on average, he's going to pull this off about once per eight adventuring days. Heck, the way we play, that's about once per level.

Step over to my minotaur fighter for a second. +2 vicious war pick (and no one is going to claim that THAT's optimised) does 8+d8+2d12+5 (str)=30 points on average on a crit. How many times per adventuring day does he crit? Even if it's only once, he's still doing over 200 points of damage to the "overpowered" character's 90 (on average).

Suddenly, the "overpowered" character isn't really all that big of a deal anymore.

 

[Dice4Hire]

My main problem with the 'overpowered' characters is not just what they do, but what they except the rest of the party to do. A lot of times their trick or nova requires specific actions on the part of the other party members, and boy do they get annoyed when the party does not play along. Very annoyed.

Followed right along with the DM being annoyed.

It gets even better when the player is weak on the rules.

 

[DragonLancer]

But as a player, people can't seem to see past the stats. It's bizarre. Why should I be penalised for making intelligent choices in character creation? Why should someone who makes dumb or illogical decisions in character creation be elevated on some imaginary pedestal of roleplaying brilliance?

Firstly I haven't read this entire discussion because it's on 18 pages and I don't have the time to go through it all. So forgive me if I've missed something important.

I have had the same problem in the past (some ENWorlder's may remember it though it's a few years ago) but from the opposite side. My regular players and I prefer a game where a certain level of optimisation is fine but not too far. We had a player who wouldn't play to our level and ruined games by constantly over-optimising his characters. He couldn't see why we didn't play to his level and he refused to play at the level the group majority did. It ended badly.

The problem is that this sort of issue swings both ways. You want the rest of the group to come up to your level but they don't want to, and I assume, want you to play down to theirs.

My opinion is that you play the group majority or look for/start another group.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

My main problem with the 'overpowered' characters is not just what they do, but what they except the rest of the party to do. A lot of times their trick or nova requires specific actions on the part of the other party members, and boy do they get annoyed when the party does not play along. Very annoyed.

Followed right along with the DM being annoyed.

It gets even better when the player is weak on the rules.

That's quite a wide generalization to make. This describes one of the two powergamers in my group. But when he's asked to tone down his frustration, he obliges. The other powergamer in our group is laid back and never gets annoyed at the actions of any other player at the table.

 

[Paradox]

I don't optimize so much now, but back in the day, and especially/specifically with the computer games, I'd click the "re-roll" button for my stats until I had at least 2 18's, or something that was "acceptable". (I.E. No low scores.)

It became a sort of mini game in itself. Imagine the following happening very fast.

Click.
Click. Scores too low.
Click.
Click.
Click. (Hm... 18 Str, but 6 Con... )
Click.
Click. (WOW! 4 18's! And the other scores above 14!)
Click. (ARGH!)
Click.
Click.
Click.... ETC.

 

[Wiseblood]

IMO it's not optimizing that's bad. It's how certain people optimize. Sadly this method that is irksome is highly subjective. Sometimes broad sometimes narrow. While we may find someone that agrees with us it's a matter of personal taste.

My personal beef is with race optimisers. People who select a character race based solely on it's benefit to a specific class that they want to play. Without regard to really anything else. They may role play it to the hilt and it still may be fun but at first blush any race that isn't an iconic PC race (or race class combo) it grates on my nerves.