Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

[James Gasik]

You can...by banning rules elements you don't want to use at your table. It's actually pretty easy, and doesn't demand that rules change for everybody else.

The flipside of this is, to be fair, that you can change any rules you don't like as well. I'm not keen on 3 round flight either, but I appreciate the strange gyrations designers go through to try and make flight less painful for less experienced DM's who don't know how to handle such things.

4e's Heroes of the Feywild gave us a Pixie or Sprite playable race that had a fly speed, but a maximum elevation of 10'. Similarly, I played in a Pathfinder game where there was a race that levitated and floated about freely, but had a fly speed of 10.

Both races were worth playing, despite their limitations, at least, to the players who chose them.

I'm not retracting my previous statements; I don't think flight is that hard to deal with, but then again, there are people who tell me Descending AC isn't hard to deal with, and yet, even I've stumbled with it in the past.

I know page count is precious, but I wish there was a sidebar or something that told DM's "this is how to handle flying races" and then gave options for DM's who felt that was too much a chore- from evolving flight to limited flight, and having banning be the last resort.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You can...by banning rules elements you don't want to use at your table. It's actually pretty easy, and doesn't demand that rules change for everybody else.

A nonissue is where I don't have to do anything extra. If I have to houserule it away, it was an issue.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I am. Makes a lot more sense in the world after all.

I just don't see any point in putting out opposition that is just going to turn around and run away.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A nonissue is where I don't have to do anything extra. If I have to houserule it away, it was an issue.

Fair enough, but in my experience life (and gaming) don't usually work that way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I just don't see any point in putting out opposition that is just going to turn around and run away.

Because sometimes it makes sense that that would happen. Life (even simulated life) is messy sometimes, and games feel more real (to me, anyway) when you allow for logical stuff to happen. I don't want to play or run a RPG where the world is presented in bite-sized gameable chunks. If you do, and the rules as they stand work for you, what are you complaining about?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Because sometimes it makes sense that that would happen. Life (even simulated life) is messy sometimes, and games feel more real (to me, anyway) when you allow for logical stuff to happen. I don't want to play or run a RPG where the world is presented in bite-sized gameable chunks. If you do, and the rules as they stand work for you, what are you complaining about?

I'm not complaining. This started by me explaining why the rules probably work the way they do. The only two D20 based games I play have similar structures, and most of the other fantasy games I've played don't have much in the way of flight as an option in general, and when they do its for advanced characters.

I'll note I am not the person who complained about this. I explained why I wouldn't like it the other way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not complaining. This started by me explaining why the rules probably work the way they do. The only two D20 based games I play have similar structures, and most of the other fantasy games I've played don't have much in the way of flight as an option in general, and when they do its for advanced characters.

I'll note I am not the person who complained about this. I explained why I wouldn't like it the other way.

Ok. If you're happy with things as they are and don't want to change, then there's no discussion to be had.

 

[Faolyn]

Generic bit of info here. The longest recorded flight for a domestic chicken (that I've been able to find) was 13 seconds and 300 feet. Which means that (turning 13 seconds into to two rounds) that chickens either have a fly speed of 150 feet, or 75 feet but this one Dashed.

So, while I guess one could logically say that limiting PCs to three consecutive rounds has some real-world verisimilitude, it also means that PCs have only slightly more wing-strength than a chicken and are considerably slower than one. I kinda want to play a character who is cooler than a chicken.

(Also, eagles can go about 50 km/hour, which is a movement speed of 275; dragons have a fly speed of 80. I just found a site that will convert D&D speeds to real-world units)

Right. So, in ten years' time, when Morrus et al are doing Level Up 2e, I volunteer to look up all the real-world animal info for you so you can make the monsters both more realistic and cooler than real animals.

I don't disagree, but I'm not sold "can reliably make certain opposition flee" is all that better than "can fight them without repercussions".

The flying creatures aren't making the opposition flee, though.

In fact, they may not even be fleeing--they may be retreating in order to get ranged weapons.

Flying PCs only don't have repercussions because you said you don't want there to be any--you specifically said you don't want to make encounters that would challenge flying PCs. Which is your prerogative, but you can't also claim that flying PCs are immune to danger and can make ranged attacks at will.

If the opposition can get to them in time.

That's up to you as a Narrator to play them intelligently, then. They have a movement speed; they can Dash and Sprint just like PCs.

I'd rather simply play a game where it was a nonissue.

I honestly don't see it as an issue in the first place. If you don't want flying PCs, don't allow them at your table. It's simple enough. My upcoming game has only four PC heritages. One of them (a homebrew) even has flight as a gift option, although neither of the players who took the heritage chose that option.

But the game itself really could have picked more "realistic" limitations than just a 3-round limit.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

To me the issue is that standard scenarios that I’d expect to happen in a fantasy story don’t work if a PC has flight. Heck, a bunch of published adventures don’t work if a PC has flight.

-The players need to go through a dark forest filled with dangerous wolves.
-The players need to climb a mountain in order to find an item at the top. It’ll take 2 days to get to the top because going straight up isn’t an option. Over those days they’ll be attacked by polar bears and yeti since they’ll have to pass by their lairs.
-The players need to find their way down a trap filled hallway, where touching the ground is dangerous.
-The players come to a chasm where the bridge is out and are forced to take a detour around forcing them to spend the night in a nearby haunted town.
-The players need to transport an unconscious guy with an anti magic aura on him to the one place that will be able to heal him but there are demons (without flight) waiting to ambush them on the road there.

These are just a few of the scenarios that have actually come up during games that would have been ruined by one person having at will flight. There are countless more. Does each of these have a “solution”? Sure. But do most of those solutions either feel like you are purposely taking away a player’s ability or feel very contrived and artificial and possibly a little unfair? You bet.

 

[James Gasik]

Those are pretty easy to solve though. The Dark Forest has a MacGuffin inside it so you need to actually enter it. And there are a tribe of Buckawn (potentially hostile Brownies that use poison) who can shoot at people from the trees.

The mountain is also the aerie of some arctic Griffons who have learned how to tackle and knock prone flying prey.

The trap filled hallway is too narrow to allow winged flight by a Medium-sized character (a typical 5' wide corridor would be sufficient for this).

The players have a reason to enter the haunted town, perhaps to find a lost treasure.

Or, just as easily, you have demons with flight, like Vrocks.