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D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

Amrûnril

Adventurer
Again, I say, how often does this come up? I cannot remember it ever being in an issue in all my years of playing.
Funny how every example of ranges is limited to 150 feet at most. Still not seeing the problem.

Does anyone have any actual examples where encounters start at 500+ feet?

If encounters at these distances never happen, then what's the point in making attack ranges so long?

Encounters at hundreds of feet may be rare in most games, but if they're the only scenario where the ability to attack at hundreds of feet is relevant, then they should be the scenario that ability is balanced around.
 

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Shiroiken

Legend
Funny how every example of ranges is limited to 150 feet at most. Still not seeing the problem.

Does anyone have any actual examples where encounters start at 500+ feet?
I haven't in a few years, but in my first campaign I had about half a dozen or so encounters begin at long range (300+ Ft). Usually the players spent a few rounds casting Bless and other pre-combat spells before significant engagement. The archer PC would pepper the oncoming enemy since he had Sharpshooter, but he never made an encounter "unplayable." He usually took out 1-2 weaker enemies before the rest of the party got directly involved, or put some hurt on the biggest enemy.
 


UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
If encounters at these distances never happen, then what's the point in making attack ranges so long?
Because people would complain that longbow were effective out to 300 yards

Encounters at hundreds of feet may be rare in most games, but if they're the only scenario where the ability to attack at hundreds of feet is relevant, then they should be the scenario that ability is balanced around.
They are as balanced as anything. The thing is, at 2 to 300 yards it is not really an encounter. It is an observation, if one side starts shooting it is trivial for the other side to run away.
 

Hussar

Legend
If encounters at these distances never happen, then what's the point in making attack ranges so long?

Encounters at hundreds of feet may be rare in most games, but if they're the only scenario where the ability to attack at hundreds of feet is relevant, then they should be the scenario that ability is balanced around.

Oh hey. You’re preaching to the choir here. If the dropped the long range entirely, it would probably have about zero impact on 99% of encounters.

The long range is there as a sop to the simulationist crowd. Serves virtually no function in the game.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Again, I say, how often does this come up? I cannot remember it ever being in an issue in all my years of playing.
do you all never do overland encounters? Party encounters wild creatures or bandits on the plains, they will easily see them hundreds of feet away, and will have rounds and rounds of bow attacks before the creatures get close.

Realistically any encounter that happens in a grassland or plains terrain should be using ranges of this length, as there is no reason you wouldn't see the enemy that far away unless their is fog or something.

I can say that the last game I had a warlock wit the 300 foot eldtrich blast invocation, they looked at every oppurtunity they could to snipe and blast people from that range....because why wouldn't they? If I can get in like 5 rounds of blasts before the enemy even gets near me, I've won!
 


Reef

Hero
I don’t know…I guess I figure if a group is dumb enough to charge a bunch of players from 600 feet away, they deserve to eat five or six rounds worth of arrows.

Most predatory creatures wouldn’t. They’d attempt to stealth around and attack undetected.

Bandits and the like wouldn’t (unless they also had longbows). They’d likely try to approach ‘peacefully’ and attempt a surprise strike from a better range. Or, pass the party by and attempt to close in on them at night.

Intelligent monsters (ogres, orcs, etc), same thing. Wait till night.

And if the players start attacking monsters at that range, the monsters will withdraw. If they start attacking humanoids who are approaching without attacking, their shoot-first mentality will cause issues, I guarantee it. Sure, they’re allowed to be suspicious of a group approaching them, but if they suddenly volley arrows at any group that looks at them funny…
 

Raiztt

Adventurer
I truly do not understand the problem, which would not normally warrant commenting just for the sake of it... but the OP seems EXTREMELY vehement about this.
Can I get a 'real game' example of the problem OP is having? Like what is the situation he doesn't like and what does he want to be different?
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I can take a stab at this.

First example: It wasn't a D&D game, but it was my first GURPS game. Having mostly played D&D at this point, I had tried my best to make a simple melee Fighter-esque character. I'm used to ranged weapons only being occasionally effective in D&D (2e) so I didn't bother to give myself the skill for using a bow or crossbow; my experience had been that encounters start, and quickly everyone proceeds into melee.

So we're traveling in bandit country, and the GM says we see riders approaching in the distance; with a great roll, someone notices they are wearing the bandit clan's colors. I announce I'll start moving towards the riders, while everyone else busts out their ranged weapons.

The encounter was over before the riders could retreat, take cover, or I ever got anywhere near melee range.

I learned from this that allowing encounters to start at extreme range can lead to very lopsided battles.

Example 2: during the 3e era, my group naturally used a big Chessex battlemap. We would start encounters at the map's edge a lot, and it wasn't long before someone noticed that their bow range was well off the map, and started griping that it was strange that even outdoor encounters always started at this particular range category.

After a good conversation about how extremely long range combat was really problematic (imagine an encounter where you're ambushed by a bunch of bowmen standing just beyond the treeline with no available cover) the player relented, but asked the simple question of "why does my bow have super long range like that if the game can't handle it?".

Example three: once in a Pathfinder game, I helped my roommate build an archer Fighter. Everything he did went into ranged combat. This did lead to a few troublesome fights for him, but more often than not, he more than kept up with the melee Fighters. At around level 6, we were exploring this ruined city, and we spotted enemies at a distance.

While everyone else is closing, he's immediately raining down four attacks (BAB, Rapid Shot, Manyshot) at enemies, actually killing one before they could even take cover. Cue GM immediately grouching about how ridiculously broken ranged combat is.

"So basically, any encounter I run, I have to make sure the guy with a bow doesn't murder everything before the melee can do anything? Like every fight has to have cover, wind, concealment, and anti-ranged magic?"

I sympathized, of course, but in the end, the only answer I had was, "pretty much, yes". It's one of those things that's very true to life; ranged combat is very good if you don't have a counter for it, but it's not necessarily fun for a game to realize that outside of tiny rooms and cramped dungeon corridors, a party of four bow users could obliterate most encounters in short order.
 

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