Why isn't base attack a skill?

[JoeGKushner]

BAB is a special skill, it works differently. Sneak attack, casying spells, there are lots of other skills that people have that just don't work inside the skill point system. Rogues have a bunch of skills that work the same so they have to make choices to get them. Cross class are still skills, just skills that that class is not going to be as good at thus the increased cost and greater limit on max ranks.

So what seperates a skill from a special ability?

For example, in Rolemaster, thieves (rogues are in essence multi-class fighter-thieves) can buy Ambush which lets them modify their critical role.

in D&D, that's not possible because there's no critical hit table.

So would sneak attack be a "skill" or a special ability?

And as you note, "just skills that the class is not going to be as good at thus the increased cost and greater limin on max ranks", which is only true if the class never mutli-classes.

 

[Janx]

You know Joe, I was just thinking this same thing.

BAB works just like skills, in the way you resolve things. It goes up at a mandatory progression by class, whereas a given skill is voluntarily increased. That's about it. The only reason BAB is manadatory is because D&D is a class based system. Fighters get a different BAB progression than Rogues. if you made BAB a skill, you'd also be wise to eliminate the classes (fighter and rogue), and just hand out a pile of skill points. Fighter types would spend theirs on BAB, rogue types would spend theirs on thiefy stuff. The MAX skill ranks rule would keep things in line fairly well as far as individual skill levels go.

Let's assume that the Rogue's SP alottment is the right amount (8+int mod)* level (I think I got that right).

For D&D rogues, they generally have 8 skills they want to keep maxed at each level, generally ensuring they use up all their points. Stereotypically, they don't advance their BAB very much, nor do they get diversity in weapons.

Normally, fighters don't have much for skills they want to keep up, but they advance a lot in their weapons skills (and they have diversity of choice).

Design-wise, you'd want to present the 2 extremes in a SP based system, rogues and fighters, with the ability to choose a middle build that isn't optimal over the 2 extremes. To do that, you need to make sure there's lots of fighty skills to buy, to force the player to choose between roguey skills and fighty skills. You can't just have 1 skill called "Fighting" (well you could, but you'd be wise to implement a SP cost per rank of advancement, like the old S&P for 2E).

So basically, you'd need a variety of "fighter skills" to give the fighter types something to spend on. You could break the skills up by:

1 Skill per weapon (longsword skill, shortsword skill, etc). This would likely consume a limited # of points because, most folks only use 2-3 weapons on their PC anyway.

You could break the weapons into groupings (gee, simple, martial, exotic), or by more specific groupings (slings, bludgeons, bows, crossbows, throwing, fencing swords, polearms, long blades, short blades).

You could then make various groupings be "cross-class" if you want to keep the class system, but move combat into the Skills rules.

Since the RAW fighter gets 2+INT, and the RAW rogue gets 8+INT mod, you basically want to have 6 or more interesting fighter-centric skills that most fighters would actually want to take. Like I said, most fighters only use 2-3 weapons, so to min-max, they would want to max out on as few combat skills as possible, so they could buy more thief skills.
(Remember, I'm assuming all classes use the same SP allotment, basically, same as thief)

Remember, you don't want a PC that is really good at sneaky stuff AND fighting or he'll outshine the straight up fighter and the straight up thief. To be a nasty killer, you'd just need a longsword, heavy crossbow, dagger, and hide, move silently, and listen. That's only 6 skills (by my proposed skill concept), leaving plenty of SP for maximizing those skills into a lean mean 1st level killing machine.

Janx

 

[Janx]

And if you consider BAB a skill, why do rogues have to pay points to Move Silently and Hide in Shadows as opposed to being a gimme? And why can characters who don't get those as class skills still purchase them?

I theory, the fighter is paying 6 SP per level for his better BAB advancement....

Based on my previous post, you could make a lot of the combat things skills, saving throws for instance...(which would be yet another interesting thing to make folks spend SP on).

 

[Shallown]

I think the only way this would work is if you did two things.

A use weapon groups or some sort of similiar weapons so you then have several "skills" to spend on.

Second is to have each class pay different prices for BAB. Ie instead of a class/cross class divide their would be a Great fighter/ avegare fighter / poor fighter divide or perhaps even more ( say 4 divides one for each of the basic classes)

This would work so Fighters pay one skill point to advance a weapon group.

A rogue may pay 3 to advance a weapon group.

A wizard pays 5 to buy ranks in a weapon group.

Just an idea


PS - No real reason you couldn't do this for all skills either. Each class having their own cost. This would be a bit like Rolemaster system but with less complexity since you have less skills and skills could easily be grouped. Also no reason to make skills exclusive to certain groups. So move silent and hide could be in a criminal group and a wilderness group.

 

[Rasyr]

PS - No real reason you couldn't do this for all skills either. Each class having their own cost. This would be a bit like Rolemaster system but with less complexity since you have less skills and skills could easily be grouped. Also no reason to make skills exclusive to certain groups. So move silent and hide could be in a criminal group and a wilderness group.

Actually, it would be a bit more like HARP (Rolemaster's younger cousin), than Rolemaster. Especially if you use the HARP d20fied guidelines from the HARP website.

Joe - a correction - Rolemaster does not have random hit points. In RM, each race has its own Hits progression rate, and you get a set number of hits for each rank purchased. Though what hit points has to do with this conversation, I don't know

As to making BAB a skill, the way D&D is current set up, there are only 2 possible progression rates, and that doesn't match up with the 3 rates for combat progression. However, a special set of Feats (like Combat Styles) could be used to compensate for this and to give more variation.

As others have pointed out, the number of skill points given out would need to be reworked. However, if more skill points are given, then you would need to rework the costs for each skill for each class (like to having three different costs for each). Then the costs themselves act as balancing factors, especially when skill points are limited.

 

[Numion]

Combat is of special importance in D&D. It is only natural that the rules reflect this. BAB as skill would've been the more consistent or elegant choice, but would it be any better? I think that the current philosphy just reflects what the game is focused on.

It would shut up all those who yack about how someone must have a good BAB as well to be good at Knowledge skills, though. Hmm .. maybe it's worth it

 

[der_kluge]

I was going to say that HARP has this mechanic, but I see (rightfully so) that Rasyr has beat me to it!

 

[Victim]

There are only 2 progressions for skills. Base Attack has 3 progressions, so the game would lose the ability to effectively model the medium guys. The relatively value of attack bonuses would require an attack skill to cost more than others, feats like skill focus would be too effective, skill items would have to work differently for it - you'd need to make attack bonus an exception to many skill increasing effects and thereby complicate the skill system. The rules for multiclass skill caps would have to be reworked - a wizard could take 1 level of fighter and then cross class the skill the rest of way to end up like a super Eldritch knight.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

I have considered doing something like this for a rules variant, but have never seriously examined the idea for flaws. This thread should be useful.

Ditto. *draws up a chair to watch the thread*

 

[FickleGM]

There are only 2 progressions for skills. Base Attack has 3 progressions, so the game would lose the ability to effectively model the medium guys. The relatively value of attack bonuses would require an attack skill to cost more than others, feats like skill focus would be too effective, skill items would have to work differently for it - you'd need to make attack bonus an exception to many skill increasing effects and thereby complicate the skill system. The rules for multiclass skill caps would have to be reworked - a wizard could take 1 level of fighter and then cross class the skill the rest of way to end up like a super Eldritch knight.

I almost mentioned this, but then I realized that a character with Base Attack as a class skill can model the medium guys by spending less than maximum skill points. But, your point is taken and to some extent agreed...