Why modern movies suck - they teach us awful lessons

[Guest 7034872]

Maybe for the best? Bedrockgames brought up Many Saints of Newark the soprano prequel movie. I thought it was pretty weak as a story overall. A lot of that had to do with the movie trying to accomplish way too much. It was at least 8 episodes of material crammed into a 2 hour movie. Movies just dont have the time to encompass a large scope like a series can. It has really expanded what is possible for a writer(s).

I heard a lot of people say that. I still haven't seen the thing yet myself, but your complaint is one I heard often (and the clips I watched at length left me cold).

Is it for the best, though? I don't know--tough call. I unplugged a long time ago, so I no longer even get any kind of TV anymore, whereas I do still watch lots of movies, so it's mostly the downside of that migration that comes across my screen. Still, shows like The Wire, The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse, and numerous others have impressed me enough from online clips that I've bought them on BD and will re-buy a few of them on 4K (something I almost never do). I'll still say in a better culture--a culture less dominated by Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok--there'd be enough decent writers to go around so that both movies and TV could flourish. But now I'm just loping off into one of my counterfactual scenarios again...

 

[Bedrockgames]

I heard a lot of people say that. I still haven't seen the thing yet myself, but your complaint is one I heard often (and the clips I watched at length left me cold).

One problem is you have to buy the movie to watch it on Amazon. Which makes taking the dive a little iffy. A lot of people have voiced the criticism Payn did (I think the average rating on RT is something like 60-70% positive but I could be wrong: if that gives you any indication). I found it to be a fairly straight forward storyline that didn't need more than a single movie. But I did feel it could have used an additional 10-20 minutes because the ending felt like it hit a little too quick and I will wanted there to be more movie. I think people are going to have very different opinions though. I can easily see valid reasons for hating it, finding it Meh or loving it.

My criticisms are the ones I voiced already and I think a character like Silvio was way too close to how the character was depicted in the show (and this is decades earlier so it just felt like he had too many old man quirks and came off as a bit of a caricature----which the original character was anyways, but it stands out when he is supposed to be so young). I liked the other performances though.

 

[trappedslider]

Seven brides for seven brothers is the musical version of Stockholm syndrome

 

[Zardnaar]

One of the things I wish folks would discuss more is the series The Expanse. This sci-fi series has women and people of color in all kinds of leadership positions. It has same sex couples, and even polyamorous relationships. Discrimination and oppression ring throughout the series, but none of the above mentioned items are targets or cause of it. It's just people in a story and their conflict is around resources and power, which is all politics typical revolve around.

Since its so understated, but demonstrated so subtlety, nobody really talks about how great that actually was to see in a modern story.

Expanse is executed well and it enhances the show.

Same with DS9 it's the best Trek imho.

I agree with 80% of certain things but I don't like being lectured it preached to and if a show is to heavy handed or cringe it's a big turn off.

I'll watch DS9, Married With Children, Expanse, Sense 8 but some things are bad and executed badly. Batwoman trailer was very cringe for example.

I don't think GoT season 8 was pushing any particular message that hard but it was meh.

 

[Mannahnin]

I don't think GoT season 8 was pushing any particular message that hard but it was meh.

"Charismatic leaders and saviors are not to be trusted"?

I find it hard to name my favorite Wes Anderson.

Grand Budapest is just a masterwork and definitely one of my favorites.

Life Aquatic is very personal to me.

Royal Tennenbaums feels like one of his most personal ones... He has a lot of love for the flawed characters.

Rushmore is also much more raw than his other films, and I imagine a little autobiographical too.

Grand Budapest and Moonrise Kingdom are pretty much tied for me, though RT was the first one I fell for. Moonrise so evokes the woods here in New England in Summer. Gets me right in the childhood.

But it isn't slipping past their defenses is the point: they are willingly engaging with it. They understand the message, even if it is subtle (and Star Trek at least wasn't very subtle). But the quality of writing was there, and it was done in a way that the politics enhanced the material. From the other side of the aisle, Starship Troopers would be the book that did this for me. I don't agree with the politics of the book, but I found it incredibly engaging. It wasn't that he was slipping in ideas and they were going past my defenses: the ideas were clearly there and he was clearly using his story to make a case for his ideas. But I was willing to engage with the Heinlein because it was a well crafted story and he presented his position in a way I found compelling even if I disagreed with it.

Heinlein also was floating it as a thought experiment. While some of the stuff in ST he did indeed believe, the idea sprang from a conversation he had with Poul Anderson about Switzerland, as I recall. This is the same guy who wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, remember. His books had some of his beliefs in them, but were often about exploring them and taking them into interesting places.

Okay, the politics in DS9 were there, I'm not saying they weren't...but it is not my personal take-away for the show. I fell in love with the story, the dialogue and the characters. The question would be is why does something like DS9 with tons of political nuance not seemingly create tribalism like perhaps more modern shows. Is it our current climate? Are the stories, dialogue and characters overshadowed by the message? Is it something else? Is it all the above? I dunno.

Do you think tCD would attack DS9 along the lines of gender or race as he does shows of today? If not, why does it get a pass?

Yes, I think it would come in for the same kind of jeers and culture warring if today's kind of tribal social media had been around when it came out.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Heinlein also was floating it as a thought experiment. While some of the stuff in ST he did indeed believe, the idea sprang from a conversation he had with Poul Anderson about Switzerland, as I recall. This is the same guy who wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, remember. His books often had some of his beliefs in them, but were often about exploring them and taking them into interesting places.

I get that. Strange in a Strange Land was the first of his books I read. I am not pinning him to one ideology. But what I liked about Heinlein, and what I like about science fiction in general is that these are thought experiments. And the way he got you to engage with what he was saying wasn't by making you feel like he was shouting at you for not agreeing, it is like he understood where he needed to meet you so you would listen (which makes sense if it came from a conversation with Poul Anderson----wasn't aware of that till you mentioned it). This stuff doesn't even have to be about politics. Arthur C Clark wrote a book about a thought experiment about a space elevator and a sapient species that evolved under water without fire. I don't mind if the message gets a little strong (some of the old star trek was a bit on the preachy side, but I didn't mind that for the show). But if a show feels like it is always lecturing, even if I agree with what they are saying, I find myself tuning out more and more.

 

[Ryujin]

Heinlein also was floating it as a thought experiment. While some of the stuff in ST he did indeed believe, the idea sprang from a conversation he had with Poul Anderson about Switzerland, as I recall. This is the same guy who wrote Stranger in a Strange Land, remember. His books had some of his beliefs in them, but were often about exploring them and taking them into interesting places.

Wrote "Starship Troopers" and got called a fascist. Wrote "Stranger in a Strange Land" and got called a communist. He said, "I just write stories."

 

[Blue Orange]

Wrote "Starship Troopers" and got called a fascist. Wrote "Stranger in a Strange Land" and got called a communist. He said, "I just write stories."

Heinlein was all over the place politically, and changed over time, moving from left-wing free love radical to right-wing militarist libertarian free love radical. It appears to have been connected to his remarriage, from what I can tell--his first wife was a radical socialist and his second a conservative Republican. (But apparently they both had open marriages.) The more I read about him, the more I'm convinced he just made up his own mind about stuff rather than picking a philosophy, which really annoys people when it comes to politics.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Heinlein was all over the place politically, and changed over time, moving from left-wing free love radical to right-wing militarist libertarian free love radical. It appears to have been connected to his remarriage, from what I can tell--his first wife was a radical socialist and his second a conservative Republican. (But apparently they both had open marriages.) The more I read about him, the more I'm convinced he just made up his own mind about stuff rather than picking a philosophy, which really annoys people when it comes to politics.

Huh. The more I read about him, the more I think he just wanted to get it on, and his political philosophy was just, "Yes, dear, now we can go have sex with other people?"


ETA- not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[payn]

Wrote "Starship Troopers" and got called a fascist. Wrote "Stranger in a Strange Land" and got called a communist. He said, "I just write stories."

Also, been called the father of libertarian sci-fi, lol.