D&D 5E Why no 16-18s allowed in Point Buy?

[Abstruse]

This will only work if we assume that the DMs will make players keep the first character they roll. In my experience that just doesn't happen. The other problem is the internet has taught me that people will cheat when they roll characters.

I look forward to someone asking wizards what happens with their attribute boosts they get from leveling when the character's attributes are already maxed out at 20.

It goes back to "rulings over rules". If you want to play the game where every player keeps rolling over and over until they get two 18s, that's your game. Rather than creating complicated language to prevent it, they're letting DMs choose how to run their game.

The roll option is also a bit of pandering to old school players to draw them back in, to be honest. The way the system's laid out now, Roll > Point-Buy > Array in terms of total bonus, and Roll gives you the chance for a natural 16-18. At the end of the day though, the best it'll give you is +1 to a roll for a few levels before the rest of the parties come up.

 

[Nikosandros]

From what it looks like currently, we will probably be able to trade attribute boosts for feats.

[ doh ninja'd ]

It's explicitly stated on page 56.

 

[Crothian]

Well, no, and arguably it shouldn't, because at the end of the day, this is a character the player would hopefully be happy playing.

Right, so people will reroll until they get the character they like with an 18 or two and no body would ever use point buy thus defeating the idea that no one starts with high scores.

 

[tomBitonti]

I don't think it has much to do with a preference to rolling over point buys.

Removing 16-18 removes a number of problems: A focus on optimization; a focus on stats rather than player story and style; a problem of balancing abilities.

Also, the problem of an expectation of high stats, with a starting value of 16-18, adding 4 by 20'th level, and adding 6 more from stat boosters (26-28 by 20'th), which doesn't include racial or class (barbarian) bonuses. That led to many many builds being, not only non-optimal, but unplayable due to the power level difference.

There is also the dissonance of the old style 3d6 rolling, which had 18's be quite exceptional. Even with 4d6, take the best 3, the feel of the normal distribution was lost.

Another problem is that high stats wash out the detail of weapons: What difference is there between 1d6 and 1d8 when you add +6 due to strength? Or of 2d6 vs 1d12 adding +6 to +12?

Also, high stat bonuses don't work well with bounded accuracy. The range of difference between low and high levels becomes too high.

Thx!

TomB

 

[stevelabny]

Well, no, and arguably it shouldn't, because at the end of the day, this is a character the player would hopefully be happy playing.

Which is why it should be more like "point buy or roll. If you roll a character with less than a +5 total bonus you can point buy to a +4 bonus - with possibly diminishing rerolls."

There's no "be happy playing" because as we see from OP, some people aren't happy that they have a human with STR 16 making him (one of) the strongest human 1st level character - its still not high enough.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I was wondering what is the rationale that the point buy system only goes to a max of 15 in a stat (so 17 with racial bonuses).

I understand the higher stats being very expensive, but not to include them at all seems a bit limiting imo.

The words 'pointlessly restrictive' come to mind.

My first thought was 'Wow, 5e really doesn't want players using point buy!' But I think if that were true, it probably would've been buried in the DMG-to-come, or relegated to some later module. I guess the 5e guys think that making PB super restrictive is a good idea, for whatever reason.

The end result in PB games is simply going to be that 15 is the new 18, of course.

Was really not a fan of the 3e/4e/PF assumption that you needed to start with an 18 or 20 in your primary stat.

Haven't played much PF, but I can assure you that there is no such assumption in 3e or 4e.

Don't believe everything the internet tells you.

 

[Stalker0]

What difference is there between 1d6 and 1d8 when you add +6 due to strength?

About 10% DPR, assuming an AC 16 creature.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

This will only work if we assume that the DMs will make players keep the first character they roll. In my experience that just doesn't happen.

That experience is totally alien to me. To this day, I've never played with a DM that allowed rerolls. I don't allow them and honestly, cannot see why one would allow them. If you're looking into building a specific character, point-buy is your way to go. I offer you point-buy, but if want to roll, you'll have to keep whatever you get.

 

[Umbran]

This will only work if we assume that the DMs will make players keep the first character they roll.

Not quite. It will only work is we assume that DM will make players stop when they get a reasonable set of stats.

With point buy, your maximum is limited, but the choice is entirely in the player's hands. With rolling, you have a chance for something slightly higher, but the player accepts that they may not get their choice of sets.

I look forward to someone asking wizards what happens with their attribute boosts they get from leveling when the character's attributes are already maxed out at 20.

If *all* their stats are at 20, I'd be happy with, "Well, then you're maxxed out. You don't do anything with the boosts. You've already had a bunch of levels of play with really high stats, what more do you want?"

 

[Obryn]

Right, so people will reroll until they get the character they like with an 18 or two and no body would ever use point buy thus defeating the idea that no one starts with high scores.

Which is why it should be more like "point buy or roll. If you roll a character with less than a +5 total bonus you can point buy to a +4 bonus - with possibly diminishing rerolls."

There's no "be happy playing" because as we see from OP, some people aren't happy that they have a human with STR 16 making him (one of) the strongest human 1st level character - its still not high enough.

These are all reasons I find rolling for stats occasionally problematic, yes.

Really, a table can handle this. It's just striking a balance.