Why no Clr/Rog PrC?

[Malin Genie]

The DMG has the Eldritch Knight Ftr/Wiz PrC, the Arcane Trickster Rog/Wiz and the Mystic Theurge Clr/Wiz PrCs (qualified: by Wiz of course I mean Wiz or Sor, and yes, Eldritch Knights can be based on Pal or Rgr or Bbn, and MTs can be Druids etc.) In each case a few (2-4) Wiz/Sor spellcasting levels are lost, and the other class also lags correspondingly (-3 BAB for the EKn, -2d SA and reduced BAB for the ATr, -3 caster levels and loss of turning for the MTh.)

I can see the rationale for these classes in the weakness of multi-classed spellcasters under current multi-classing rules. Ftr/Rog and Ftr/Clr probably don't need specific PrCs in that the Fighter role doesn't suffer too much from having a few levels of 3/4 BAB and the Sneak Attack or Cleric buffs can enhance a character's combat role anyway.

The glaring omission to my mind is a generic Clr/Rog PrC. There is no suitable PrC in the DMG, and the Complete Divine fails miserably too, with the Black Flame Zealot not only being very specific to non-good Fire deities but also only providing 1/2 spellcasting advancement!

Is there some reason I'm missing that no viable Clr/Rog PrC was provided?

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

The DMG has the Eldritch Knight Ftr/Wiz PrC, the Arcane Trickster Rog/Wiz and the Mystic Theurge Clr/Wiz PrCs (qualified: by Wiz of course I mean Wiz or Sor, and yes, Eldritch Knights can be based on Pal or Rgr or Bbn, and MTs can be Druids etc.) In each case a few (2-4) Wiz/Sor spellcasting levels are lost, and the other class also lags correspondingly (-3 BAB for the EKn, -2d SA and reduced BAB for the ATr, -3 caster levels and loss of turning for the MTh.)

I can see the rationale for these classes in the weakness of multi-classed spellcasters under current multi-classing rules. Ftr/Rog and Ftr/Clr probably don't need specific PrCs in that the Fighter role doesn't suffer too much from having a few levels of 3/4 BAB and the Sneak Attack or Cleric buffs can enhance a character's combat role anyway.

The glaring omission to my mind is a generic Clr/Rog PrC. There is no suitable PrC in the DMG, and the Complete Divine fails miserably too, with the Black Flame Zealot not only being very specific to non-good Fire deities but also only providing 1/2 spellcasting advancement!

Is there some reason I'm missing that no viable Clr/Rog PrC was provided?

There may not be in the dmg but there are plenty in other major wotc 3.5 works. The temple raider of olidarma or whatever is one I know of. I think they were just trying to keep the total number of dmg prcs down to a workable number.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rich Burlew has a decent one - The Divine Trickster.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

The UA has the Prestigious Class called "the Ranger"?

 

[Malin Genie]

The Temple Raider has some rogue-like abilities and good skills, but its own spell progression. IMHO that isn't anywhere near a Clr/Rog PrC. The Unearthed Arcana Ranger PrC gives good skills but not only is it only 1/2 spell progression but its flavour is unmistakably that of a woodland tracker, not of a rogue. And it gets no Sneak Attack advancement.

The Divine Trickster is exactly the kind of PrC I had in mind, and as with much of Rich Burlew's work, well thought out. I also like the fact that he goes to the trouble of explaining the reasoning behind the class requirements and abilities.

So back to the original deep philosophical question - why was there no 'Divine Trickster' in either the DMG or the Complete Divine? Delibarate or oversight?

 

[Saeviomagy]

So back to the original deep philosophical question - why was there no 'Divine Trickster' in either the DMG or the Complete Divine? Delibarate or oversight?

I daresay it's because complete divine seems to have taken the attitude for many sections of the book that if it was available somewhere else, it could be cut-and-pasted in. TRoO fit the rogue/cleric niche, and was cut-and-pasted in without a second thought.

That may not actually be the case, but in comparison with what was done in complete warrior it really seems that way to me.

 

[the_bruiser]

Feel free to tell me to butt out, since this is rules, not house rules, but it seems relevant. We use the rules below to create 'fair' equivalents to the EKnight or ATrickster for any combo. Works great for us, YMMV, and removes the 'arbitrariness' of which particular combos WOTC chooses to favor with official prestige classes.

MULTI-CLASSED SPELLCASTERS
In the base rules, multi-classed spellcasters stink. To help make up for that, every multi-classed spellcaster has access to a custom prestige class with the characteristics outlined below.

Requirements
• Class A: The character must be able to cast third level spells as a cleric, shugenja, sorcerer, wizard, or similar “casting” class.
• Class B: The character must be at least fifth level fighter, ranger, rogue, or similar “non-casting” class.
• The player must come up with a cool name for his custom prestige class.

Base Statistics
• The character’s base attack progression (good, medium, bad) is the average of classes A and B, rounded down.
• The character’s hit die is the average of classes A and B, rounded down to nearest die.
• The character receives good saving throw bonuses for saves in which either class A or B has good bonuses, bad otherwise.
• The character has skill points equal to the average of classes A or B rounded down (this number can be odd). All class skills for Class A and Class B are class skills for this class.

Class Abilities
• Every level in the custom prestige class grants an additional spellcasting level in Class A. Every level in the custom prestige class grants the other class abilities in an alternating fashion, starting with Class A.
• Spellcaster levels for ‘non-casting’ classes are included in the class feature progression for Class B.

Example #1
Bob is a 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level redeemer. The redeemer prestige class has the following properties:
• BAB progression: would be medium, the average of fighter (good) and cleric (medium), rounded down.
• Hit die: fighter d10, cleric d8, so redeemer is d8.
• Saves: Fighters have good fort, clerics have good fort and will, so redeemer has good fort and will saves, bad reflex.
• Skill Points: Fighters have two, clerics have two, so redeemer has two and access to both skill lists, no rounding needed.
• Spellcasting: A 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level custom would cast as an 12th level cleric (5+7).
• Class features: A 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level custom would have all the feats of a 8th level fighter (5+7/2 rounded down) and all non-spellcasting abilities (turning undead, etc.) of an 9th level cleric (5+7/2 rounded up).

Example #2
Bob is a 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level nature’s fireball cannon. The unacceptably-named prestige class would have had the following properties if the name had been acceptable:
• BAB progression: would be medium, the average of ranger (good) and wizard (bad), no rounding needed.
• Saves: Rangers have good fort and reflex, wizards have good will, so class has good bonuses in all saves.
• Skill Points: Rangers have six, wizards have two, so class has four and access to both skill lists, no rounding needed.
• Primary spellcasting: A 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level custom would cast as a 9th level wizard (5+4).
• Class features: A 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level custom would have all the feats, animal companions, ranger spells, etc. of a 7th level ranger (5+4/2) and all non-spellcasting abilities (bonus metamagic feats) of a 7th level wizard (5+4/2).

 

[Darklone]

I'm against that class.

I see the Clr/Rog similar to the Ftr/Clr and the Ftr/Rog. A special class such as the arcane trickster would be too strong, the Rog/Clr is strong enough without it.

If you're primarily Rogue, you'll get for giving up some sneak attack damage and a few skill points (which usually don't keep a rogue from maxxing out the few real important skills): Nice powerups against undeads... which rogue doesn't like that? Secondary spells (nice utilities), armour proficiency, hitpoints, even weapon proficiencies IIRC, better saves, domain powers (luck or trickery perhaps?)

OTOH, if you're mainly cleric, you'll get a nice skill point boost, lose a few hitpoints, get 1 or 2d6 sneak attack damage (very nice as secondary melee dude), evasion, a small needed boost for Reflex saves... all for losing some spellcaster levels. That may hurt, but you gain a lot of versatility (and the EK as well as the AT don't help you if you want to be a fullscore spellcaster).

So: No need for a Rog/Clr prestige class.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Complete Divine has the Black Flame Zealot p.21, decisively an assassin/cleric PrC.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I was pondering this very question on my way to work.

Rich Burlew has a decent one - The Divine Trickster.

-Hyp.

is a great answer! Thanks.