why paladins (smite) are powerful: action economy efficiency

[Blue]

My experience, with a party where a dwarf paladin is doing a lot of the heavy lifting, is that smite often lets the paladin deal a lot of damage quickly in early fights, which then means that by the later fights the casters still have a lot of juice left in their tanks while the paladin's is running low.

I've almost never seen the PC in question use the Smite spells, however. To me, that suggests that the Smite ability is overpowered compared to those spells. Then again, the paladin in question has the oath of Vengeance which gives him hunter's mark which he'd have to drop in order to use those, so the situation might be different with other paladin types.

Heck, I've often used Smite spells and Divine Smite when I wanted to deal out damage quick.

But really, for low level slots the damage bonus of that extra die makes Divine Smite the better damage dealer. Both (a) most play happens 1-10 and (b) focus firing to inflict the "dead" condition are helped by this, we often see the damage as more worthwhile.

But the riders on some of the smite spells are fantastic. If you're overwhelmed as tank and you fear someone off, grat. Or off dealing with someone by yourself and the damage difference between a Smite spell and a Divine Smite isn't going to drop them this round but a condition can sure make you a happier camper - those are when the Smite spells are worth it. I unfortunately see players get into the rut of just using Divine Smite and they don't use the Smite spells at times when there would be a big advantage from doing so.

 

[Autumn Bask]

Fascinating! What sort of restrictions are you talking about? I don't recall seeing any in the PHB!

I'll be honest, I didn't realize this was a controversial topic, so please don't place whatever baggage you have from previous arguments onto me. I won't have any reference point for it. As for what the PHB says:

"a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of pow er that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion" (PHB, page 82)

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don't appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class" (83).

"When you reach 3rd level, you swear the oath that binds you as a paladin forever" (85).

BREAKING YOUR OATH
"A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath.

"A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an all-night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act of self-denial. After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.

"If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master’s Guide" (86).

"Tenets of Devotion
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you."

 

[Maxperson]

You can cast then on your round as a bonus action and attack. Do your movement before casting. If you miss all of your attacks is about the only case you have to worry about potentially losing it.

Yes I know. I lost enough of them that it just wasn't worth the risk for some small effect. Better to just hit and then use smite.

 

[Psyzhran2357]

Wrathful Smite has good synergy with the Conquest Paladin's Aura, especially when paired with a reach weapon. Do the other Smite spells have any synergies like this?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I'll be honest, I didn't realize this was a controversial topic, so please don't place whatever baggage you have from previous arguments onto me. I won't have any reference point for it. As for what the PHB says:

"a paladin’s oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of pow er that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion" (PHB, page 82)

"The most important aspect of a paladin character is the nature of his or her holy quest. Although the class features related to your oath don't appear until you reach 3rd level, plan ahead for that choice by reading the oath descriptions at the end of the class" (83).

"When you reach 3rd level, you swear the oath that binds you as a paladin forever" (85).

BREAKING YOUR OATH
"A paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous paladin is fallible. Sometimes the right path proves too demanding, sometimes a situation calls for the lesser of two evils, and sometimes the heat of emotion causes a paladin to transgress his or her oath.

"A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. The paladin might spend an all-night vigil in prayer as a sign of penitence, or undertake a fast or similar act of self-denial. After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.

"If a paladin willfully violates his or her oath and shows no sign of repentance, the consequences can be more serious. At the DM’s discretion, an impenitent paladin might be forced to abandon this class and adopt another, or perhaps to take the Oathbreaker paladin option that appears in the Dungeon Master’s Guide" (86).

"Tenets of Devotion
Though the exact words and strictures of the Oath of Devotion vary, paladins of this oath share these tenets.
Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.
Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.
Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.
Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.
Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you."

You might be surprised at how many people dismiss all of that as fluff, and therefore "not rules" that can be safely ignored.

A lot of warlocks do the same thing.

 

[Blue]

Ever since the launch of the current edition under discussion, paladins have been massively overpowered due to the way in which their smite ability breaks the normal action economy limit.

Paladins are one of the frontrunners, but alongside other frontrunners. Not overpowered.

Also, they are not in that place due to Divine Smite by itself. You take it out and paladins will have some damage dip as they move to Smite spells that do almost (especially with higher level slot when the extra d8 doesn't mean as much) but have fantastic riders.

They are a frontrunner because of the whole package - the CHR aura to saves makes them great support as well as combining with their all armor, shioelds and high AC to make them very survivable, and be able to keep concentration on spells - removing that from paladins would be a much greater affect then removing divine smite.

Under normal circumstances, characters are limited to spending one spell slot per round. Paladins can spend their spell slots twice as quickly, which is why they're powerful. They can burn through their resources faster than anyone else.

Unless you're playing at ridiculously high levels or your DM plays only a few encounters a day (a real gimme to all casters), you will always have more rounds of attacking then you will of spells, so being able run out earlier in the day with Divine Smite vs. Smite spells isn't really affecting your total damage, just smoothing out your nova damage some. it's not nearly as big a deal as presented when you're conserving it to last 6-8 challenging encounters.

 

[Blue]

To bring it back to the topic *and* keep talking about the hexblade, the hexblade *does* have a smite like ability. I'm a lot less sure about it though because of the lack of slots, but also because you don't get it for free, you need to spend an invocation to get it, so I feel that the calculations are not as good.

edit: was walking the dog and thought of this too - the warlock, when giving up a slot to smite, is giving up more than the paladin - not only does she have less slots, it's almost always a bigger, more powerful slot - a sloth that could have been used to cast Fear or Shadow of Moil.

Yeah, Warlock Smite gets the shaft compared to Paladin Divine Smite. Both have an opportunity cost (Paladin would have had something else at that level) so that's actually even, but restricting it to Warlock slots is a huge hit. Divine Smite is most efficient with low level slots - sicne it's d8 + d8 per level a 1st level slot get the most extra as a percentage, plus 1st level slots lose their value quickest when you have higher level slots. (Even many useful 1st level paladin spells like Bless are worth more when upcast with higher level slots.)

 

[Blue]

Yes I know. I lost enough of them that it just wasn't worth the risk for some small effect. Better to just hit and then use smite.

If you're getting a small effect, you're probably not boosting your CHR to get good DCs.

Just look at the 1st level Smites:

1st level Thunderous Smite does 2 HP less than Divine Smite on average, but also forces a STR save or knocks back and prone. All your melee allies getting advantage until it's turn? Big effect.

1st level Wrathful Smite. Does 5.5 less points on average which is a big deal - for the chance to Frighten them. Disadvantage on attacks, ability checks, and can't move closer to you. And they don't even get saves normally, they have to spend an action to even try to make a save.

 

[Maxperson]

If you're getting a small effect, you're probably not boosting your CHR to get good DCs.

Just look at the 1st level Smites:

1st level Thunderous Smite does 2 HP less than Divine Smite on average, but also forces a STR save or knocks back and prone. All your melee allies getting advantage until it's turn? Big effect.

1st level Wrathful Smite. Does 5.5 less points on average which is a big deal - for the chance to Frighten them. Disadvantage on attacks, ability checks, and can't move closer to you. And they don't even get saves normally, they have to spend an action to even try to make a save.

Except when they do 0. It's the "0" that's the problem for me. Not a bit less damage when you hit.

 

[AkaKageWarrior]

Paladin is a good class.
But as you mentioned it depends on the style of play.
If playing how 5e was designed with many fights between long rests, it is absolutely balanced.
That is my experience from playing a paladin in ToA, especially compared to our hexblade fighter, getting almost everything back from a short rest.