Why PCs should be competent, or "I got a lot of past in my past"

[kigmatzomat]

I think a lot of the definition of "competent" varies by edition. In 1e, a fighter only knew how to use 4 weapons, a caster has 1 spell per day and both have a very nebulous background. In 5e fighters can use almost every weapon, casters can throw cantrips all day and both have a skill or three that could earn them a living from their upbringing.

I feel like 1st level 5e characters are more like 3rd level 1e characters. Of course I also feel like a 20th level 5e casters is closer in daily power to a 15th level 1e magic user, so each 5e level is like half a 1e level.

 

[DammitVictor]

Personally, I wish that 1st level D&,D characters were a lot more broadly competent-- I am not a 12th level fighter-- and higher level D&D characters were less vertically, supernaturally, powerful until the game starts assuming the corresponding degrees of secular/divine authority.

 

[pemerton]

I agree with your general thesis that a D&D style party generally works better with characters who are "experienced" than with a bunch of farm kids on their first journey outside the village.

The complication, of course, is that the core mechanical conceits of D&D are based around starting with very few abilities and quickly rising to have a lot of abilities.

I have noticed, though, that my games that have been most successful story-wise have been those where the characters started at higher levels (anywhere between 5th-10th) and only gained a few levels throughout the campaign.

So you're saying that there can be tension between the game's mechanical dynamic, as a source of game-play pleasure and achievement, and the game's story aspects, as a satisfying tale of ensemble heroism?

Controversial!

 

[Umbran]

So you're saying that there can be tension between the game's mechanical dynamic, as a source of game-play pleasure and achievement, and the game's story aspects, as a satisfying tale of ensemble heroism?

Controversial!

So you know, this can come across as condescending snark. That may not serve you particularly well.

 

[payn]

As several folks have pointed out, the power growth is part of the D&D experience. As several folks have also pointed out, there are other RPGs that start at a more versatile and skilled character. Traveller for example has a much flatter progression and characters dont end up much different by the end of the game. You jump in and go.

It's been argued here on these boards, that the zero to hero power growth dynamic is one of, if not thee, most important piece of D&D's success. I think that leads into the game part of RPG. I find myself less interested in that part these days, which is why I prefer games like Traveller over D&D at the moment.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is just one of the many places in the game where there's a disparity between game and story. We have a whole bunch of things that are designed specifically for the "gameplay" aspect... but its parallel to narrative and story is fungible at best.

Are 1st level characters "inexperienced"? Well, compared to what characters can do at 20th level, they certainly seem that way. But then again, 1st level characters are hands-down more experienced than Commoner NPCs. So depending on how the table decides to imagine their story... you can play 1st level as 18-year-olds going out to adventure for the first time OR as seasoned adventurers that can control or dominate regular folks if they so choose. D&D allows for us to imagine things either way and does not proscribe one way or another.

It also doesn't proscribe how leveling up and our narratives align either. Getting up to 20th level could be these characters spending a decade or more in-world evolving slowly over time (for those campaigns that use a lot of 'downtime' between individual adventures)... or could be like 3 months of in-world time passing as you play out an adventure path or something. Again, the game does not tell us how we are meant to see things and its all up to individual tables to decide. The fact that you could have a game that starts the party with fresh-faced 18-year-olds going out to adventure for the first time as 1st level characters and then they become 20th level ubergods in less than a year in-world at 19-years-old because that's just how the DM chose to level up the PCs while the narrative unfolded... is all we need to know about just how much the game does not care or tell us how to run it.

 

[payn]

This is just one of the many places in the game where there's a disparity between game and story. We have a whole bunch of things that are designed specifically for the "gameplay" aspect... but its parallel to narrative and story is fungible at best.

Are 1st level characters "inexperienced"? Well, compared to what characters can do at 20th level, they certainly seem that way. But then again, 1st level characters are hands-down more experienced than Commoner NPCs. So depending on how the table decides to imagine their story... you can play 1st level as 18-year-olds going out to adventure for the first time OR as seasoned adventurers that can control or dominate regular folks if they so choose. D&D allows for us to imagine things either way and does not proscribe one way or another.

It also doesn't proscribe how leveling up and our narratives align either. Getting up to 20th level could be these characters spending a decade or more in-world evolving slowly over time (for those campaigns that use a lot of 'downtime' between individual adventures)... or could be like 3 months of in-world time passing as you play out an adventure path or something. Again, the game does not tell us how we are meant to see things and its all up to individual tables to decide. The fact that you could have a game that starts the party with fresh-faced 18-year-olds going out to adventure for the first at as 1st level characters and then they become 20th level ubergods in less than a year in-world at 19-years-old because that's just how the DM chose to level up the PCs while the narrative unfolded... is all we need to know about just how much the game does not care or tell us how to run it.

Good stuff here. Long ago I realized that the story/narrative/role play is not connected to the mechanics directly. I have been using the term "under the hood" the mechanics are simply there to drive things forward, arbitrate obstacles and results of actions, and not be present during the story exchange. YMMV.

 

[delericho]

One of the crazy things about D&D is that it generally has players create characters who get threatened by something like a giant rat or a bandit but who are also already strictly superhuman - they have far better stats. far more power, a much wider range of abilities, and heal vastly more quickly than any of the people around them.

Other than that... I'd prefer 1st level characters to start weak to allow for more growth. That way people who prefer to start with more power can do so easily by starting at higher level; moving the baseline downwards is much harder to achieve.

 

[Deset Gled]

And stories about groups generally start with them already experienced. Take any Star Trek crew, or the Serenity crew, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the All-New All-Different X-Men, team Leverage, the crew of the Rocinante, the A-Team, the IMF, and so on. They are already mature characters when we get to know them.

A short list of ensemble media where the group of characters start out at generally lower power and level up over time:

The Walking Dead (and some spin offs)
Smallville
Avatar The Last Airbender
Scrubs
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Charmed
Mystery Men
Toy Story films
Naruto
Supernatural

 

[payn]

A short list of ensemble media where the group of characters start out at generally lower power and level up over time:

The Walking Dead (and some spin offs)
Smallville
Avatar The Last Airbender
Scrubs
Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Charmed
Mystery Men
Toy Story films
Naruto
Supernatural

Yeap, and to go back to the X-men example, they didn't start that way. Not in the comics, and even the movies like First Class show how they built up to it. Proving that compelling stories are possible even at the initiate stage.