D&D 5E Why play a low-level Fighter when the Barbarian is so much better?

KarinsDad

Adventurer
I partly agree with you, especially when it comes to the dice rolling. I still can't get myself to roll hit/damage at the same time.

I don't agree when it comes to the conclusion. If I was playing a Wizard at level 11+ (since you mention three attacks), you have quite a lot of spells known (28+5 cantrips), and lots of spell slots (15). You have a single decision to make, but it's probably a lot more complex than the deceision for the Fighter. Using a Cantrip repeatedly sounds like a no-brainer encounter that doesn't take a lot of time for the Fighter either. If it's a more dangerous encounter you really have to think to maximize the Wizards potential, much more so than the Fighter, deciding what spell slots to blow, and you have a lot of them. Also, the multiple target spells triggers a lot of saving throws. Pretty sure that a Fighter takes less time in that scenario, while the first scenario is something that is going to be quick for both.

... It probably depends more on the player though. A fast player can be very quick even if playing a Wizard (or a Codzilla from 3.5, which I did). I must say that the medium fast player was quicker than me (and I am a fast player) since he just played a high-crit power attacking Fighter, and I played a cleric type (Solamnic knight prestige class mess). I just had so many options that I sometimes got stuck in a complex decision making loop.

The main thing about the Wizard is that the decisions can often be done out-of-turn, while the thing is that takes time for the Fighter, the rolls and deceisions in between the rolls is what is taking the time. On the other hand, rolling 40d6 damage for Meteor Strike is going to take some time, together with the saves for everyone in the 4x40' diameter columns. (Sure you can average the damage, but if so, you can for the Fighter's damage as well).

Well, I'll number these instead of responding to each of your points directly:

1) I was talking about level 5 (fighter with 2 attacks and action surge).

2) With an 11th level wizard, the player of the PC will have often started at much lower level, possibly 1. Yes, he has to pick 16 spells each day, but 12 or 14 of those are the same most of the time. He's been playing this PC for months and knows him.

3) During a round, he definitely has more options. But, they tend to fall into one of three basic categories:

a) Cast Cantrip. No brainer, doesn't even have to think further.

b) Cast offensive spell. Out of the 16, about 9-10 of those are probably offensive. Why 9-10? He'll want to have one of each level and that's 6 minimum. Also, most of his lowest (i.e. 1st to 2nd) level offensive spells do not help at all. He'll probably have 1 or 2 of level one and 1 or 2 of level two, just to blow off low level slots and get more than a cantrip off. But, most of his offensive spells come from higher level slots. He'll want to be offensively worthwhile as much as possible, so a majority of his spells known will be dedicated to offense.

c) Cast defensive or miscellaneous spell. Out of the 16, about 6 or 7. Shield, Fly, Invisibility, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic. He'll probably have a list of go to the well lower level spells to use up his 1st through 3rd level slots up with. These are also for non-combat situations.

Obviously, each player will choose differently, but the bottom line is that most players will cast offense over defense a good portion of the time in combat. In a 6-8 encounter day (as per the DMG guidelines), he'll want to cast 1 to 2 spells each medium or harder encounter, and at most 1 spell per easy encounter out of his 16 spells per day. Outside of that, he'll rely on cantrips. His decision making process is a bit limited with 1 to 2 spells per encounter. So, he'll mostly be in a) and b) above in combat.

He has 16 spell slots. Early on in encounters, his decision probably matters little (although some player might agonize over it). Later on in encounters as slots get used up, he'll start getting squeezed to the point that decisions are made for him. No more 3rd level slots, then no more 3rd level spells shy of bumping them up to higher level.

4) Nobody is going to be using Meteor Swarm for a long time. When they do, having played Champions a lot, rolling 40D6 takes a while to roll, but with 10 dice at a time and organizing the totals by groups of 10, it can take a minute or two to add it all up. So sure, one spell once per day at 17th level can be a bit more time consuming. The fighter makes up for that in the next encounter. :lol:

The 8 or 10 or 12 dice of a typical Fireball, that takes 10 seconds to add up. Less time than it takes for two attacks by the fighter which are probably about 10 seconds each once the to hit is determined (D10 plus mods), multiple damage dice are added together (if applicable), and other damage (str) is added to it. Critical, even longer. Yes, some players can do that in 3 or 4 seconds, but only if they roll to hit and damage at the same time. Does an 8 on the die hit? Well, how much is the total? 17 is well known and to hit is not even considered.


But, I agree with you. Slower players will take more time. Faster players less. Players of spell casters can really slow the game down if they are not fast and/or do not decide what to do ahead of time.

But even slow players using simple PCs can slow the game down. One player in our group is that way. He's pretty slow, almost agonizingly so.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad


KarinsDad

Adventurer
Dex's main drawbacks are that most of the finesse weapons aren't great and that Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Mastery are rad. Granted, neither of those arguments hold up particularly well for anyone who is not swinging a two handed weapon.

Although Dex is good for finesse weapons, it's strength is in the sheer number of things it does:

1) Ranged weapons.
2) Dex Saving Throws.
3) Finesse weapons.
4) Initiative.
5) AC.
6) Stealth.

Most PCs do not have high Strength. Once that occurs (i.e. not a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or possibly a Ranger), melee and ranged weapons rely on Dex.

AC prevents hit point damage. Dex saving throws prevent hit point damage. High Dex means that high Con is not necessarily needed since other attacks with other ability score saving throws tend to not do as much damage.


Bottom line, Dex is the best stat in the game system and anyone with one lower than 12 should make that decision based on character concept or theme. Such a PC is behind the eight ball and that's ok, but it sure blows off a lot of party advantage resources. "Hey, it's ok that I get hit a lot, have low inits and attack late, and stumble around without stealth, the cleric will heal me." :lol:

Our group of 6 has 2 16s, 3 14s, and 1 12 (and he has Heavy Armor Mastery, so he is preventing damage that way). Dex is that good.
 

TheGorramBatman

First Post
Although Dex is good for finesse weapons, it's strength is in the sheer number of things it does:

1) Ranged weapons.
2) Dex Saving Throws.
3) Finesse weapons.
4) Initiative.
5) AC.
6) Stealth.

Most PCs do not have high Strength. Once that occurs (i.e. not a Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, or possibly a Ranger), melee and ranged weapons rely on Dex.

AC prevents hit point damage. Dex saving throws prevent hit point damage. High Dex means that high Con is not necessarily needed since other attacks with other ability score saving throws tend to not do as much damage.


Bottom line, Dex is the best stat in the game system and anyone with one lower than 12 should make that decision based on character concept or theme. Such a PC is behind the eight ball and that's ok, but it sure blows off a lot of party advantage resources. "Hey, it's ok that I get hit a lot, have low inits and attack late, and stumble around without stealth, the cleric will heal me." :lol:

Our group of 6 has 2 16s, 3 14s, and 1 12 (and he has Heavy Armor Mastery, so he is preventing damage that way). Dex is that good.


I can't speak regarding some of what you're saying because I've yet to play in a game where stealth was a major factor (major enough that the whole party needed to be involved) and I've yet to play in a game where Javelins and thrown handaxes weren't "good enough" to cover most ranged encounters.

Using strength for both hit and damage on thrown weapons along with the ability to essentially quickdraw a javelin each round before the attack has taken a lot of Dex's melee&ranged superiority away. It's still better at ranged, but only about as better at ranged as a two hander with appropriate features is better at melee. I'd really call it a wash in most cases.

Frankly, regardless of the edition, if a party came under withering fire from superior range the correct answer has never been to "draw a bow and just slug it out for the duration." The correct answer has always been to either close the distance, withdraw, or gain advantage magically. From what I have seen, Javelins have been good enough "filler" for the strength based characters to hold out waiting for more favorable conditions.



Initiative isn't as big of a deal in this edition as previous editions in my experience as Flat Footed has ceased to be a thing.

Casters using battlefield control need to go FIRST. Any melee that goes before said battlefield control is mucking things up by getting in the way of Black Tentacles etc. After that? Meh. The Rogue is no longer as reliant on going first for early Sneak Attacks and everyone else seems to be able to filter in with the monsters without nearly as much hassle as earlier editions.

Really though, not much has changed here. If the group's Fighter beat the groups Wizard in an encounter of any significance the "tactically correct" answer has always been, "I hold my action until after the Wizard has gone" (so long as the Wiz isn't way far behind). The Wizard's first spell shapes combat far more than anything else in an encounter and they damn well need to go first.

After the first round, initiative has always been relative anyway. It is no longer about FIRST and just about order, its significance drops greatly. So, meh. Init is still one of the end all be all stats for anyone attempting solid battlefield control or crowd controlling AoE, for everyone else it isn't nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be. With this in mind I've found myself arguing that while Wizards can cast in heavy armor with proficiency, it probably isn't a great idea to pursue a Wiz in heavy armor with no Dex bonus.

Also Init hasn't been too big of a deal because the Init modifiers on the monsters I've been throwing around haven't been nearly as impressive as they were in other editions. In 3rd or Pathfinder, having a +1 init put you behind most monsters, and behind some by a very significant margin. Now? Meh. A +1 isn't really as big of a deal now from what I've seen. I'd even say a flat 0 init isn't the "HORRIBLE OMG GROUNDBREAKING WERE ALL GOING TO DIE" situation that it definitely could be in the past. Unless you're a Wizard, then go ahead and stack Dex and get the feat.


Dex to AC is completely removed by heavy armor proficiency. With Heavy armor a 12 is as good as an 8. You are right about what you've noticed with Dex allocations, but I'd say those allocations have a lot less to do with "zomgDEX!" and more to do with the simple caps of how AC work. Warlock? 16+. Wizard? 16+. Bard/Rogue? 16+. Barbarian? 14. Nerd caster cleric? 14. Heavy Cleric/Fighter/Paladin? 8, 10, maybe 12 if they really hate their mental stats. Though, really, the Dex distributions you described are pretty standard fare for D&D all the way back to 3.0 simply because AC is the most frequently attacked defense and more characters use light/medium armor than those that use heavy. Two high dex, three mid dex, one low dex is the exact same distribution I'd expect to see in a 6 player Pathfinder game.

Dex gives AC. That makes it powerful. Dex also gives Init, which can be powerful. Most classes don't need to care about bows (spells and to a lesser extent Javelins). I'm really not convinced that Dex is quite as powerful as people make it out to be for most practical gameplay.
 

TheGorramBatman

First Post
Back on topic:

I'm becoming more and more impressed with Battlemaster Fighter. A handful of the maneuvers are probably outright crap, but they've got some interesting options which neither take an actual action (most are done as a part of a normal swing) and reward a bit of extra damage.

I'd like to point out some very interesting language in a good number of these maneuvers (also interesting for the wording of the Paladin's Divine Smite feature).

"When you hit..."

This crops up a lot. When. You. Hit.

Not when you declare an attack action. Not when you make an attack roll. When you hit.

Now on to critical hits:

...if the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the Rogue's Sneak Attack feature, roll those dice twice as well."

When you hit... roll those dice twice as well.

The Battlemaster (and Paladin with Divine Smite) is in a fairly unique position of being able to add more dice to a roll after it has come up as a critical hit.

So. So long as you've got maneuver dice in reserve (or spell slots) on any given crit you can decide to use a maneuver (or Divine Smite) and add twice the damage to the roll in addition to any other effects provided.

In practice, much more interesting for the Paladin, but I think it has some serious implications for the Battlemaster as well.

I enjoy the Barbarian class features, but between this, Second Wind, Action Surge, and Fighting Style I certainly wouldn't count the Battlemaster Fighter as a clear loser in this comparison.

Edit: The Divine Smite feature is particularly worrisome with the "When you hit ...roll those dice twice as well." pairing. Being able to sacrifice slots on the fly for an equivalent number of bonus d8's (+1d8 past 11th level) gives the Paladin remarkable burst on any crit they happen upon. I have no idea how powerful adding 2 - 12d8 to every applicable crit will be, but it sounds significant. We'll see how that works out.
 
Last edited:

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Initiative isn't as big of a deal in this edition as previous editions in my experience as Flat Footed has ceased to be a thing.

Casters using battlefield control need to go FIRST. Any melee that goes before said battlefield control is mucking things up by getting in the way of Black Tentacles etc. After that? Meh. The Rogue is no longer as reliant on going first for early Sneak Attacks and everyone else seems to be able to filter in with the monsters without nearly as much hassle as earlier editions.

Really though, not much has changed here. If the group's Fighter beat the groups Wizard in an encounter of any significance the "tactically correct" answer has always been, "I hold my action until after the Wizard has gone" (so long as the Wiz isn't way far behind). The Wizard's first spell shapes combat far more than anything else in an encounter and they damn well need to go first.

After the first round, initiative has always been relative anyway. It is no longer about FIRST and just about order, its significance drops greatly. So, meh. Init is still one of the end all be all stats for anyone attempting solid battlefield control or crowd controlling AoE, for everyone else it isn't nearly as big of a deal as people make it out to be. With this in mind I've found myself arguing that while Wizards can cast in heavy armor with proficiency, it probably isn't a great idea to pursue a Wiz in heavy armor with no Dex bonus.

Also Init hasn't been too big of a deal because the Init modifiers on the monsters I've been throwing around haven't been nearly as impressive as they were in other editions. In 3rd or Pathfinder, having a +1 init put you behind most monsters, and behind some by a very significant margin. Now? Meh. A +1 isn't really as big of a deal now from what I've seen. I'd even say a flat 0 init isn't the "HORRIBLE OMG GROUNDBREAKING WERE ALL GOING TO DIE" situation that it definitely could be in the past. Unless you're a Wizard, then go ahead and stack Dex and get the feat.

I see the exact opposite.

Initiative is now King compared to 4E.


In 4E, combats tended to last 4 to 6 rounds (more in grinds). So yes, order was important, but not critically so.

In 5E, combats tend to last 1 to 3 rounds. Now, initiative is crucially important, even beyond round one.

The reason is that combat is so short and monsters are often killed in one or two blows. As an example:

PCs have 80% chance to hit. Monsters have 50% chance to hit. Two hits kill a PC or a monster. Both sides focus fire.

Every full two points kills a foe. So, one foe is killed at 2.0, a second at 4.0, etc. 1.9 is just injured.


All PCs win init:

Round one:

P1 through P5 attack. 4.0 total hits. 2 of 5 monsters are down.
M1 through M3 attack. 1.5 total hits. 0 of 5 PCs are down.

Round two:

P1 through P5 attack. 8.0 total hits. 4 of 5 monsters are down.
M1 through M1 attack. 2.0 total hits. 1 of 5 PCs are down.

Round three: Last monster dead.


Compared with all of the monsters winning init:

Round one:

M1 through M5 attack. 2.5 total hits. 1 of 5 PCs are down.
P1 through P4 attack. 3.2 total hits. 1 of 5 monsters are down.

Round two:

M1 through M4 attack. 4.5 total hits. 2 of 5 PCs are down.
P1 through P3 attack. 5.6 total hits. 2 of 5 monsters are down.

Round three:

M1 through M3 attack. 6.0 total hits. 3 of 5 PCs are down.
P1 through P2 attack. 7.2 total hits. 3 of 5 monsters are down.

Round four:

M1 through M2 attack. 7.0 total hits. 3 of 5 PCs are down.
P1 through P2 attack. 8.8 total hits. 4 of 5 monsters are down.

Round five:

M1 through M1 attack. 7.5 total hits. 3 of 5 PCs are down.
P1 through P2 attack. 10.2 total hits. All monsters are down.


In the first encounter, 1 PC went down, none others injured. In the second, 3 PCs went down, 1 other PC injured.


Now, this is a very simplistic example and heavily extremed with regard to init, but it illustrates the point. The more PCs win init in 5E where they have a high chance of hitting and the monsters typically have less of a chance of hitting, the PCs wipe up encounter.


Sorry, but Init is King in 5E. Along with Group Stealth checks and surprise. Adding a surprise round to this is huge.

Hence, Dex is huge.

The Starter Set should have taught a lot of people this about 5E.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
B
The Battlemaster (and Paladin with Divine Smite) is in a fairly unique position of being able to add more dice to a roll after it has come up as a critical hit.
Nod. It's something the Knight/Slayer Fighters of Essentials could do, too. Pile on Power Attack (their one & only limited-use attack power), which added one or more [W] depending on level, when you crit.

Some DMs'd disallow it, and have you roll the dice anyway...

Come to think of it, the Knight & Slayer, as they got to higher level, could tack on riders like pushing or knocking prone or whatever, to their power attacks, too (hmm... the Battlemaster, the 5e 'complex' fighter, actually bears a /strong/ resemblance to the Essentials 'simple' fighter. How 'bout that.)

In practice, much more interesting for the Paladin, but I think it has some serious implications for the Battlemaster as well.
It's mainly the 'when you hit' that helps. It means those pitiful few CS dice can actually be stretched a little further than if they were simply wasted the ~35% of the time you miss. Really, it just gives up a little control over /when/ you use the ability, in return for a little more control over whether you waste it.
 
Last edited:

Tony Vargas

Legend
Sorry, but Init is King in 5E. Along with Group Stealth checks and surprise. Adding a surprise round to this is huge.

Hence, Dex is huge.
It's just one anecdote, but last night I ran the first session of HotDQ for encounters in 5e, and, the first random encounter (3 Kobolds & an Ambush Drake) the party of 6 was surprised, and the monsters did fairly well on initiative. 2 PCs dropped in the surprise round (1 rolled a 20 on a death save only to get dropped again), and a third in the 2nd round, before the tide turned and the party prevailed.

The real problem: The 3 characters dropped included everyone with a healing spell of any kind, so while they were all stabilized one way or another, it was 1d4 hours of unconsciousness...

...and here's a little murphy's rule: afaict, you can't take a 'short rest' while you're snoozing away those 1d4 hours to get your 1 hp back. Someone has to magically heal you to get you back up and awake so you can rest and spend your HD.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
It's just one anecdote, but last night I ran the first session of HotDQ for encounters in 5e, and, the first random encounter (3 Kobolds & an Ambush Drake) the party of 6 was surprised, and the monsters did fairly well on initiative. 2 PCs dropped in the surprise round (1 rolled a 20 on a death save only to get dropped again), and a third in the 2nd round, before the tide turned and the party prevailed.

The real problem: The 3 characters dropped included everyone with a healing spell of any kind, so while they were all stabilized one way or another, it was 1d4 hours of unconsciousness...

I don't know anything about HotDQ, but as a general rule, I am suggesting to my DM that surprise usually only occurs if one group waits in ambush and is expecting the other group (or alternatively, is on alert guard duty, or altenatively one group is heading stealthily along with a group stealth check, and spots first another group which is generally out in the open).

Surprise is just too potent for a few rolls and/or some adjudication to determine that one side gets a huge advantage. The basic rule that neither side is surprised should occur most of the time. All combatant types should be alert and aware the vast majority of the time. Non-combatant types, not so much. IMO.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Surprise is just too potent for a few rolls and/or some adjudication to determine that one side gets a huge advantage. The basic rule that neither side is surprised should occur most of the time. All combatant types should be alert and aware the vast majority of the time. Non-combatant types, not so much. IMO.
Like I said, just one anecdote. If the random encounter had been any of the 7 other results that didn't include an /Ambush/ Drake, I probably wouldn't have even had the monsters try to hide. As it was, they were +4 stealth vs passive perceptions of 11-14 - they got lucky.
 

Remove ads

Top