Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it

[Slaved]

Ask away. I'll answer as best as I can remember.

Great!

Pretty much exclusively with Energy Ray (cold), as far as what damaged him. He was gimped in that he was in a location where he could not take to the air for a few rounds, which limited his mobility. The wilder and the wizard both won the initiative (not hard for them to do). I think we were using Eberron actions points.

This is pretty important information.

It looks that there were mitigating circumstances that made the dragon not quite as rough as he could have been. Unable to attack effectively and the opposition using action points, which can do a number of impressive things at this level.

Yes.

Impressive. DC 29 vs a 14th level wilder likely has 9 base, 1 or 2 from wisdom, and likely 3 from a cloak of resistance would give about a +14 which means 70% chance of failure, unless an action point is used which could boost the chance of success.

I am just going through the list of things to see what the overall chances are. This one alone would've changed the entire encounter for the worse for the wilder.

Well, it takes a round to put up Temporal Acceleration, and then Schism is pretty easy to throw down.

This is true. Expensive though. I am curious though, did you allow the wilder to use schism while in acceleration or not? It is specifically disallowed by the power, but it is easy to miss.

The wilder enervated once, during a Temporal Acceleration (so it pretty much didn't make a difference).

What was the wilder doing during this extra acceleration? I assume that it was not the same one that was used for schism.

She never missed (pretty hard to do with a 5% chance to miss), and she succeeded in defeating the dragon's spell resistence every time with her main blast, and several of the Schism blasts (I think action points were spent on these). The wilder rolled well on damage. Not overwhelming, but certainly above average.

Yeah, missing that touch attack would be difficult! I probably didnt need to put it into the equation earlier.

Defeating the SR each blast is decently impressive though. It may be only 25% for the main blasts while fully surged but it had to be quite a few blasts in a row.

Schism cant blast with energy ray though, it doesnt have any fingers. This isnt that big of a deal though, so we'll move on.

The wilder was never in a position to be hit by the breath weapon, due to Anticipatory Strike.

How is this possible though? Anticipatory strike does not give you extra actions, it merely allows you to use next rounds actions now instead of then.

It would allow the wilder to get some actions faster one time but after that it would skip its next turn and then have to wait until its next turn after that popped up or it manifested the power again to use the following action early.

The dragon would have a move of 40' and a cone of fire that goes 60'.

I am guessing that this was just a misreading of the power, which happens, but isnt exclusive to powers.

The wilder repeatedly proved herself to be the most "effective" member of the party in all encounters except for the final one, where she stood around under timeless body.

Good! It sucks to have a useless character or a specialist whose specialty never comes up.

No problem. I will freely admit that it is entirely possible that this was a fluke (although previous performances in the game showed me that she spent a great deal of her time holding back), or that I am a poor gm.

It certainly looks like the pc's had the deck stacked in their favor and there were a few potential misreadings which are always unfortunate while the enemy was incredibly overpowered.

If the wilder had failed the save vs fear they would have had to flee, if the dragon had gotten in a breath weapon or full attack they would have died, if the wilder had not known what the dragon weakness was because of an insufficient skill check or the dragon disguising its color they would have been forced to flee, and it sounds like if they had not been using action points they would have been a great deal worse off as well.

Was it an exciting encounter though? it sounds like it. Are they still talking about it? If so it was a success no matter what else might've happened.

The main thing that jumps out at me with psionics are the things they can do either way better, or way earlier than their arcane equivalents.

Yeah. When you play one though you see all of the things that other casters do that you cannot. In the last game I was in I envied haste so very, very much. Full party buff, incredible effects, especially when the cleric popped up a prayer as well.

 

[Slaved]

The mages Force effects are not item of discussion and does not follow with what you asked. Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers, ect. have access to more types of energy such as positive, negative, shadow and so on.

I think that follows with his/her point though.

Psions can use 4 energy types fairly easily, easier than anyone else. The other casters get things like force, positive, negative, or whatever and are able to use those much easier.

Which is better? fire/cold/electricity/sonic at whim or simply force? I would say most of the time, possibly the vast majority of the time, force is better.

Do you disagree? If so, why?

The 2nd level Energy Adaptation, specified is equivalent to its counterpart 2nd level energy resistance. To get all 5 types you would have to manifest this power 5 different times. Energy Adaptation 4th is in the long run more powerful than the 3rd level Protection from Energy. A 15th level caster/manifester in comparison. In any long protracted battle, 30 points written off every type of the 5 types damage is worth more than 180 points of one damage type. Granted that if you fail your save, you will get more miliege out of the 3rd level spell.

You are saying that the 4th level ability is better than the 2nd level ability?

Duh?

There is a direct 2nd level spell comparison to the 2nd level power. Bringing up the higher level version which has no corallary that I know of so it would be listed as unique. Although there is a mass version of resist energy in complete arcane so the whole party could get resistance to one type so I suppose one could compare it with that, sortof.

 

[IcyCool]

It looks that there were mitigating circumstances that made the dragon not quite as rough as he could have been. Unable to attack effectively and the opposition using action points, which can do a number of impressive things at this level.

It could still attack effectively, it just couldn't (at the time) fly (which is a useful dragon tactic). That is important.

Impressive. DC 29 vs a 14th level wilder likely has 9 base, 1 or 2 from wisdom, and likely 3 from a cloak of resistance would give about a +14 which means 70% chance of failure, unless an action point is used which could boost the chance of success.

She didn't have a magic weapon (or any weapon), so all of her money went into other items. I'm fairly sure she had a +4 or +5 resistance cloak at that point. The Celestial Mystic had a Lantern Archon familiar (which grants a protection from evil effect in a radius, right?). All told, I think the odds were closer to 40-50% failure.

I am just going through the list of things to see what the overall chances are.

No problem, I've likely forgotten a few things that your questions will bring up.

This is true. Expensive though. I am curious though, did you allow the wilder to use schism while in acceleration or not? It is specifically disallowed by the power, but it is easy to miss.

No, Schism was brought up under TA, but no Schism action was used under TA.

What was the wilder doing during this extra acceleration? I assume that it was not the same one that was used for schism.

She used it often in the fight to maneuver into hiding or beyond range/reach.

Defeating the SR each blast is decently impressive though. It may be only 25% for the main blasts while fully surged but it had to be quite a few blasts in a row.

I'm thinking there must have been a critical in there somewhere. I know the warlock got a couple in the campaign.

Schism cant blast with energy ray though, it doesnt have any fingers. This isnt that big of a deal though, so we'll move on.

I will double check the power, but where do you get that you can't use it with Schism?

How is this possible though? Anticipatory strike does not give you extra actions, it merely allows you to use next rounds actions now instead of then.

Which is essentially the same thing, if you are inaccessible for the next round. I'll see if I can dig up the Wilder's character sheet (we ended at 18th I think) and talk with the player to see if we can remember exactly what happened.

Good! It sucks to have a useless character or a specialist whose specialty never comes up.

It also sucks to have a character who is overshadowed by the psionic character all the time. However, I think almost everyone got a chance to shine. (The Bard taking out an eldritch giant with Otto's and Grease was one of my favorites).

It certainly looks like the pc's had the deck stacked in their favor and there were a few potential misreadings which are always unfortunate while the enemy was incredibly overpowered.

I don't think there were any misreadings, but the PC's did get a slightly favorable meeting place.

If the wilder had failed the save vs fear they would have had to flee, if the dragon had gotten in a breath weapon or full attack they would have died, if the wilder had not known what the dragon weakness was because of an insufficient skill check or the dragon disguising its color they would have been forced to flee, and it sounds like if they had not been using action points they would have been a great deal worse off as well.

Agreed on the action points and failed fear save. I would contest the others, but that's just personal opinion either way.

Was it an exciting encounter though? it sounds like it. Are they still talking about it? If so it was a success no matter what else might've happened.

It was ... anticlimactic. The first few rounds were exciting, and then the players around the table pretty much watched in mute horror or disbelief. The wilder's player never did it again (hence the Timeless Body tactic in the final confrontation). The game was still fun, and there were more memorable encounters, but that one sticks in my mind and comes up whenever I hear the word "psionics". I'm not saying they're broken, but I'm not saying they're perfectly balanced either.

Yeah. When you play one though you see all of the things that other casters do that you cannot. In the last game I was in I envied haste so very, very much. Full party buff, incredible effects, especially when the cleric popped up a prayer as well.

You know, that's why you adventure with a party. So the bard or wizard or sorcerer can throw Haste down on you. In fact, the most fun the wilder player had was when she was surgically time hopping enemies and allies to prevent damage to her teammates.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I think that follows with his/her point though.

Psions can use 4 energy types fairly easily, easier than anyone else. The other casters get things like force, positive, negative, or whatever and are able to use those much easier.

Which is better? fire/cold/electricity/sonic at whim or simply force? I would say most of the time, possibly the vast majority of the time, force is better.

Do you disagree? If so, why?



You are saying that the 4th level ability is better than the 2nd level ability?

Duh?

Everyone else has used that I'm comparing the 2nd level when I have just been talking about the 4th level power. That is why I compared them. I thought them equal and had no problem. The problem is with 4th level power.

There is a direct 2nd level spell comparison to the 2nd level power. Bringing up the higher level version which has no corallary that I know of so it would be listed as unique. Although there is a mass version of resist energy in complete arcane so the whole party could get resistance to one type so I suppose one could compare it with that, sortof.

I have also compared this. Our party uses this all the time. The thing is that one type of energy is resisted again for the party. We have 9 party members. 7 primary characters with 2 characters having henchman since they have paid for the leadership feat. We fight a blue dragon and we protect against electricity. In situations where we can face multiple energy types, due to spells memorized, we can only generally protect against one or maybe two. The psion can give himself 30 points of protection against 5 different types of energy that the party cannot benefit.

Something in which I'm realizing is that the Psion for the most part is able to take care of himself and not worry about the rest of the party.

 

[Marcus Smythe]

That is very true.. the Psion is much, much better at buffing himself, than he is at buffing others.

Most people, however, dont consider this a strength...

 

[wildstarsreach]

That is very true.. the Psion is much, much better at buffing himself, than he is at buffing others.

Most people, however, dont consider this a strength...

But this is a strength in the survivability of the character. Not the party as a whole.

 

[Dwarmaj]

Again, different != broken

If you restrict the energy powers to a single energy type, are you going to give the psion more powers known? How about the Wilder or Ardent who are even more power restricted? They get so few powers that they need to be able to do more things with them.

How often do you get hit with multiple types of energy effects in a battle? If you have a dragon about to breathe on you which would you prefer to have up (resist 30 to four types or resist 120 to the one you need)?

Yes, psions do have an advantage when it comes to componants (V, S, and M). But they are also resticted in the use of metapsionics unlike they're arcane counter parts.

Now if you want to discuss things that are overpowering in psionics, great. I can think of Dampen Power, Syncronicity, Affinity Field, Bestow Power, and Astral Constructs (when used with Overchannel or Wild Surge).

 

[Slaved]

Everyone else has used that I'm comparing the 2nd level when I have just been talking about the 4th level power. That is why I compared them. I thought them equal and had no problem. The problem is with 4th level power.

You are apparently comparing the 2nd level spell (which has a 2nd level power with which you have no problem) to a 4th level power. There are bound to be some issues with that.

Is greater mage armor a problem because mage armor exists? Why is a higher level version of an effect, which is also better, a problem?

A first level effect might hit a single creature for 5d6 damage. If a third level effect hits up to 20 creatures for 5d6 damage is this a problem? It is way better after all.

Higher level abilities are better than lower level ones in general when they effect the same thing.

I am not seeing the problem here. Except maybe that specified energy adaption should simply have an augment for more energies resisted at once rather than having a whole other power.

Something in which I'm realizing is that the Psion for the most part is able to take care of himself and not worry about the rest of the party.

Psions generally only have self buffs. This is one of the drawbacks of the class and it is pretty hefty.

 

[Tikiman]

you ignore the facts presented when I started this post. That there are problems of imbalance with psionics.

This is not a fact, this is a highly debated opinion. Both you and Thanee need to learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. I have no problem with the opinion that psionics are overpowered, but trying to tout it as a fact is just plain rude.

Between polls and the fact that this debate has never been resolved, I can't help but think that the general evidence suggest the psion and the wizard are in balance with each other. Each has things they do better then the other.

Would you agree that there are problems of imbalance with arcane magic as well? (eg Rope Trick, Gate, Disjunction, never seeing a Wiz20, etc)

Over 40 posts ago I did agree with the argument that my character with regard to the other characters was broken. So again, need I constantly go back to my character or can we discuss the problem that psionics has some problems that need to be addressed.

The problem is that you can't use the fact that your character is overpowered compared to your group as evidence that all of psionics is overpowered compared to the rest of D&D (like you did in post 223, as well as elsewhere). That's like saying 'I'm taller then my brother, so I must be taller then everyone else'. I've got no problem with the topic as a whole, but you're using disingenuous tactics to further your argument.

You especially owe Thanee an apology and I think that you owe me one as well.

Funny thing, I've had several people I live with (college house) read what I posted to you, and all of them responded with 'he wants an apology...for that?'. All of them instantly recognized that my text towards Thanee was meant as sarcastic/exasperated, not an attack. I should have remembered it's easier to say "you're attacking me" then to actually reply to the topics in the post, and therefore posted with my kiddy-gloves on.

By my not discussing what you want here, I'm inviting your right to be blunt and rude.

No, by ignoring me when I (and others) were posting politely you invited me to be blunt in order to get a response. I had to pester you about admitting your character was designed to be overpowered before I got a response about it. I continually get the feeling that you're trying to steer the conversation in a specific direction, away from topics that weaken your position.

I started this thread as "Why Psionics is broken and what to do to fix it", not about my character.

But we quickly learned that your biggest beef was with your current character in your current campaign. I have to ask (and this is something I'm going to pester you about, so please respond), is this your first psionic character? If not, what have you previously played and how was the experience? If you haven't, then how can you justify using your experiences in this...unique situation as evidence that all of psionics should be nerfed?

This is supposed to be a discussion and all I seem to be getting are rants.

Welcome to the internet. If you think I'm bad, I'd suggest getting a protection from fire item before you do much more posting. Anonymity + humans = bad juu-juu, especially given that nobody seems to recognize sarcasm for what it is and instead takes it as a personal attack.

And I have made several suggestion of how psionics could very well be overpowered, especially at your gaming table. The total list of potential problem areas, from what topics have been raised here, include non-XPH psionic material (anything non-core/campaign is broken by default), extra action powers (Temporal Acceleration, Schism, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, etc), and the Cerebremancer PrC (though I've had lots of non-overpowered experience with it, it's apparently just not right for your table). I'm not the only one who has called these things out in particular. Despite that, you continually harp on direct damage and other things specifically called out as stuff the psion does better then the wizard (in exchange for illusions, save-or-die effects, party buffing, etc).

Now I am redirecting the conversation back to the discussion about what I had originally started.

I thought your original point had already been covered? People, myself included, admitted that yeah, Temporal Acceleration can be a bit of a @#$^!, so it's a decent houserule to just get rid of it. Same for Schism. Almost every post about how psionics are broken revolve around those powers, and yet when people admit that those are in fact problem powers, every one of those posts somehow shifts into '4 energy types for free is broken'. It's like how people say they won't use psionics because they are overpowered, when in fact they just don't like the flavor. It's sneaky, devious, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If you feel the need to be rude, please refrain from posting.

And again, I wouldn't feel the need to be rude if you wouldn't ignore things people have posted, especially when those things detract from your argument. It sometimes feels like you haven't lost the "for those of you who don't think psionic is broken, please don't post because I agree that we disagree" attitude.

I don't insult you or make this personal but you seem to feel that it is your right to do so.

Most people here aren't seeing the problem because they are being too involved with it. I see because as a veteran gamer of almost 30 years and a 44 year old player, that playing this game isn't just about me but a bunch of friends getting together and enjoying an adventure.

This isn't an insult? In an elitist tone you basically just told everyone that they're stupid and don't actually see what's going on, and that they don't know what playing D&D is about to boot. And you did it again when you said "I and a few who comment see but the vast majority think that there isn't a problem." Again you imply that your opinion is correct and there must be a problem, and anyone that doesn't agree simply doesn't know what they're talking about.

Have you ever possibly considered that there isn't a problem with psionics, but simply a problem with how you play them in your 'less then optimal' groups? Have you ever had similar problems with other caster classes? I'm dying to know just how much experience you've had with psionics in general.

I'm not trying to say that psionics is a perfect system and doesn't have it's broken areas. But I will adamantly support the idea that it has fewer problems then arcane magic. Every aspect of D&D has the potential to be broken in the hands of a 'powergamer' such as yourself. It's up to the players, and the DM, to make sure they all agree on a general power level and build there characters accordingly. Your character broke the power level of the group he was in, and in response you tried to blame 1/2 of your character's abilities. It's like you want to use psionics as a scapegoat so you don't have to admit to being a 'powergamer'.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I am a power gamer. I'm not unabashed about that. My style will take things to an extreme so that the rules will be tested.

I don't attack you personally. You, on the other hand under the guise of sarcasm attack Thanee. Yes, I have a jaded opinion since I have played all the editions of psionics. I admit that the system currently used is the best that TSR/Wotc has put out. That doesn't mean that there aren't problems. This is what I'm talking about. You state that my opinion is invalid since I have not played a straight psion.

I have a degree in Logic. Convince me of your argument, not your brow beating.

I have moved my opinion away from the dice limits. Someone presented me with a valid line of reasoning. You state that just that the opinions of other gamers must be right and I must be wrong. Give me logical reasons and I'm receptive. Attack me and no amount of convincing with that will change my mind.

In the last 6 months, during a typical session in which we have 2-4 encounters, my character typically uses maybe 4 spells. The Psion part is what is used for 95% of the combat. The last 2 sessions have been the endurance test.

The Psion part is 3 levels less than the party. This part alone keeps up with the party. Practiced Manifester was not added until 15th level.

You can apologize or not. Rude, sarcastic and blunt behavior will get nowhere with me.