Why saving throw for non-duration stuff?

[Plane Sailing]

Another idea that I've been kicking around a little is the business of saving throws - particularly the save to avoid going off a cliff.

'saving throws' to represent durations of effects, I don't have any problem with. But the use of the 'saving throw' to avoid going over the edge of a cliff doesn't jibe well for me.

I think it would make much more sense to allow, say, an appropriate athletics or acrobatics check to prevent going over. Thus more skilled (or stronger) people have more of a chance of saving themselves. At the same time, the DC could then be set appropriately for challenges at different levels. Perhaps a save against 'appropriate DC' as per DMG p42, perhaps a save against an appropriate defence of the person causing the effect (against Fort defence of a burly attacker, against Will defence of a wizard spell etc).

Do you think this might make sense?

Cheers

 

[JGulick]

Do you think this might make sense?

It wouldn't serve the same role.

Currently, the skill of the target in avoiding being moved into danger is reflected in their defense against the move-causing attack.

To make it a skill check means it becomes possible for SOME monsters and PCs to be significantly resistant while others are almost 100% vulnerable, making terrain more dangerous for certain PC Classes and Monsters than it is for others. And in a rather complex way that is hard to really anticipate. Especially since it will frequently stack on top of an already good/bad defense, meaning those good at avoiding the attack in the first place are also likely good at saving vs. the move, and those poor at the defense are also poor at the skill check. An unpleasant combination when applied to the PCs.

The save mechanic means there are very few individuals unusually good at avoiding damaging terrain once they have been hit. Elites and Solos among monsters (which helps to force you to fight them directly, not via second-hand move tricks) and among PCs, anyone with Save bonuses (which most commonly means Humans).

Keep the focus on Defenses, IMO.

 

[SableWyvern]

I was thinking about something similar the other day. Then, I realised that I'd need to make sure that the skill or abilities that could be used were wide enough to cover a large number of likely builds, and that the DCs were set to give a roughly 50/50 success chance. IOW, I'd essentially just be inventing a more cumbersome version of the same save mechanic.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It wouldn't serve the same role.

Currently, the skill of the target in avoiding being moved into danger is reflected in their defense against the move-causing attack.

To make it a skill check means it becomes possible for SOME monsters and PCs to be significantly resistant while others are almost 100% vulnerable, making terrain more dangerous for certain PC Classes and Monsters than it is for others. And in a rather complex way that is hard to really anticipate. Especially since it will frequently stack on top of an already good/bad defense, meaning those good at avoiding the attack in the first place are also likely good at saving vs. the move, and those poor at the defense are also poor at the skill check. An unpleasant combination when applied to the PCs.

The save mechanic means there are very few individuals unusually good at avoiding damaging terrain once they have been hit. Elites and Solos among monsters (which helps to force you to fight them directly, not via second-hand move tricks) and among PCs, anyone with Save bonuses (which most commonly means Humans).

Keep the focus on Defenses, IMO.

The first problem is that the saving throw is being forced into another use which is different to its primary purpose. Getting the hang of the essentially different purpose of the saving throw (as a duration limiter) is tricky enough, without it suddenly being used in its original sense again!

The second problem is that th 20th level demigod is no better at stopping himself fall off a cliff than a 1st level neophyte - which doesn't seem right.

Cheers

 

[JGulick]

The first problem is that the saving throw is being forced into another use which is different to its primary purpose. Getting the hang of the essentially different purpose of the saving throw (as a duration limiter) is tricky enough, without it suddenly being used in its original sense again!

It's being used as a quick-resolution mechanic for a mid-action resolution need. I'd rater not see anything with more math used.

The second problem is that th 20th level demigod is no better at stopping himself fall off a cliff than a 1st level neophyte - which doesn't seem right.

Which, I guess, means it's good that this is false. At higher levels, the character has better defense options. Sure, their base defenses are just keeping track with the monster's Attacks (if that), but they have picked up (or have had the option to pick up) powers to modify or avoid attacks, feats or powers to have or give to one another save bonuses, and who can say what else from magic items?

PCs are in the category with Elites and Solos, the people the current rule is biased to favor. The proposed change will mean some PCs (those with the necessary skill) are biased to favor and others (those without it) are at great risk. I prefer the current situation.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Better defences don't figure into the aspect that I'm concerned about though. After all, there are *1st level powers* that enable you to shift someone even on a miss - e.g. Curse of the Dark Dream".

So against that power, the epic lord and the heroic neophyte are both equally likely to go over the edge - despite the first guys amazing ability scores, tremendous skills and so forth.

After all, your argument could be used against grapple too... why not just make a saving throw to escape from a grapple? I wouldn't favour that for the same reason that I'm not happy with the 'avoid being pushed into a pit' stuff.

Cheers

 

[JGulick]

Better defences don't figure into the aspect that I'm concerned about though. After all, there are *1st level powers* that enable you to shift someone even on a miss - e.g. Curse of the Dark Dream".

So against that power, the epic lord and the heroic neophyte are both equally likely to go over the edge - despite the first guys amazing ability scores, tremendous skills and so forth.

Not true if those amazing abilities include feats and powers that enhance saves. As they can if you want them to (esp. if you're Human), and will for Elite and Solo monsters inherently.

After all, your argument could be used against grapple too... why not just make a saving throw to escape from a grapple? I wouldn't favour that for the same reason that I'm not happy with the 'avoid being pushed into a pit' stuff.

Escaping from a Grapple is an action. Actions can (and frequently do) have base mechanic rolls involved. Save vs. hazardous terrain is a side-effect of an action, an incidental roll made after the base mechanic roll for the action has already occurred. As such, it should be quicker. That is my argument here.

 

[Phesic]

I think the save mechanic is fine. I see the act of falling prone like that scene from Ghosbusters, where Winston is half on and half off the roof, splayed out to keep himself from moving.

I'd also let this saving throw break a grapple, after all, he tried to toss you in a pit and you saved. Grapple ended.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I have completely dumped the idea of a Saving Throw as 55% on a d20. I use whatever relevant Skill I feel is necessary for the player to make.

Poisoned? Make an Easy Endurance check if the attacker is lower level, a Moderate Endurance check if the attacker is equal level or a Hard Endurance check if the attacker is higher level in place of the saving throw.

Charmed? Make an Easy Insight check if the attacker ""

See where I am going with this?

 

[Phesic]

I have completely dumped the idea of a Saving Throw as 55% on a d20. I use whatever relevant Skill I feel is necessary for the player to make.

Poisoned? Make an Easy Endurance check if the attacker is lower level, a Moderate Endurance check if the attacker is equal level or a Hard Endurance check if the attacker is higher level in place of the saving throw.

Charmed? Make an Easy Insight check if the attacker ""

See where I am going with this?

What's the relative skill for ongoing fire damage?


This method seems like a good substitute but will be brutally punishing for certain class/damage combination, especially when the difference can be failing as much as an extra 30-40% of the time.

The straight up 55% means it's balanced for all levels regardless of skill. Simple, but ultimately fair.