Why Shouldn't Martial Characters have powers?

[Mercule]

Wanting D&D to allow for pulp and/or sword and sorcery heroes, at least out of the box, would require it to be a pulp and/or sword and sorcery game out of the box. It isn't. It passes briefly through that power level around levels 4-12, but outside of that, it's either grim n' gritty (1-3) or fantasy supers/mythic (13+).

Coincidentally (or not so much, IMO), those levels (4-12) are where it's been said "the math works". I have to admit that I don't just want to see 4E extend the math of those levels, but the feel, also. Actually, I'm a little sad that 1-3 appear to be disappearing. Grim-n-gritty is much, much more my style than super-heroic.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You've forgotten boots of springing and striding for 5,500 gp -> +5 competence on jump checks.

The boots give an extra +4 to jump checks for +10ft movement. But I had to stop somewhere.

Good call on the potion and tumble synergy bonus, I didn't know about those.

 

[Mallus]

Not anymore, it won't. Leastways, if all the hype is true and it's as similar to SWSE as is said.

Good point. Make that '1st level in the non-heroic class'.

 

[BBQ]

A little note for the people who're mentioning Beowulf: in his 3e incarnation (see Dragon magazine back issue #329), he's listed as being only a 15th level fighter. Perhaps that's not his level by the time he fights the dragon, but during the battles with Grendel and his mother...

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Coincidentally (or not so much, IMO), those levels (4-12) are where it's been said "the math works". I have to admit that I don't just want to see 4E extend the math of those levels, but the feel, also.

Agreed.

My preference is for a system that allows for plenty of mechanical character growth within the upper part of the pulp range (I'd say roughly D&D's levels 9-12 for fighters and multiclassed characters, and levels 3-7 for pure spellcasters). This fits both Sword and Sorcery and JRPG style fantasy, the two types I'm interested in.

Actually, I'm a little sad that 1-3 appear to be disappearing. Grim-n-gritty is much, much more my style than super-heroic.

MASSIVELY disagree. I flatly refuse to play D&D below 3rd level, and would never even think of running it. I can't see a single thing about it that could be construed as fun, much less appropriate to any genre of fantasy I'm familiar with. Plus, it's yet another dramatic and unexplained shift in tone, feel and power level.

That new groups used to be introduced to this totally atypical play strikes me as a huge weakness of the current rulesset; removing level 1 as 'beware of housecats and 10 ft. falls' level is the single best change I've heard about 4e.

 

[renevq]

And that place is called '1st level'...

Tsk. It's called NPCville.

I don't get how people mention powers and automatically knee-jerk into "it's magic anime!!!!" In Bo9S, the only one who had this flavor was the swordsage, and he was a Mystical Warrior/ Wuxia/ Anime character by design, a "caster" who could do cool stuff in a per encounter mechanic. He was never a fighter analogue. The Warblade, which showcased what a fighter type could do with the per encounter system, had no magical or supernatural abilities, but nicely scaling stuff which fit very well with the power level expected (e.g., the level 9 maneuvers are Save or Die, two Full Attacks in a round, 2d6 CON damage, lead an army in a charge and +100 damage in an attack as a standard action. You'd think a 17th level character who's spent all his time honing his fighting skills should be able to do this). The fact that they are implementing this mechanic into 4th is very nice, and will make high level fighters worth playing without going for the christmas tree effect. I plan on adressing power differences from here till the day I play 4th by replacing Fighters, Paladins and Monks with Warblades, Crusaders and Swordsages. It just makes for more balanced parties.

 

[Umbran]

The problem though is how do you balance that with magic?

Carefully, and with great skill and imagination. Just because we don't see the solution, doesn't mean one (or even many) doesn't exist.

I mean, as soon as you get to level 5, you hit flight and you can be invisible at the same time. Without magic, the guy who focused on being a melee specialist is just simply *BONED*.

This is the 4e forum, right? Do we have confirmation that in 4e flight and invisibility are both available at level 5? If not, consider that part of the balance may come in the form of pushing some spell-powers out, rather than buffing up the fighter earlier...

My problem with this discussion is that I don't think Conan, Aragorn and Arthur WERE high-level characters.

I don't think they were ever game characters at all, high or low. D&D has never, in any edition, modeled Tolkien well. Conan you get close just by disallowing PC spellcasters, I think. Which is not a big deal, as there are precious few spellcasters in Conan anyway.

 

[Simplicity]

Good point. Make that '1st level in the non-heroic class'.

Just because you enjoy magic coming out the pores of your heroes doesn't mean that all D&D players do. I like to play lower levels. Many people do. You want a magically-inclined fighter, play a swordmage. That's what that class is for.

Plus why the heck are people crying for balance between fighters and wizards? They're two different things; two different roles in a party; two different styles of play. It's a good thing that D&D can accomodate those different styles. If you have someone in the party overshadowing someone else, that's a bad thing. But I certainly haven't seen wizards overshadowing the rest of the party in 3.5e. DRUIDS, yes. Wizards, no.

I don't care if your wizard can cast fireball. If he doesn't have a fighter between him and the enemy, he's not going to last very long. 3.5e wizards are if anything weaker than they were in 2e (given that it's not unusual to run into magic resistant, elemental resistant, or evasion having enemies).

 

[Doug McCrae]

I don't care if your wizard can cast fireball.

Fireball isn't the problem.

Charm Person, Invisibility, Web, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, Wall of Force, Plane Shift, Forcecage and Time Stop are part of it, not to mention plenty of other spells.

 

[Simplicity]

Fireball isn't the problem.

Charm Person, Invisibility, Web, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, Wall of Force, Plane Shift, Forcecage and Time Stop are part of it, not to mention plenty of other spells.

Any save-or-you're-out-of-the-combat spell is a problem. That's just a flaw in D&D's design. Agreed. Wall of Force, Forcecage and Teleport are hardly "I win" buttons. More like "I tie" buttons. They're certainly annoying from a player and a DM perspective.

The rest are simply reasons why it's good to have some magical help along. Wizards are powerful, and their powers are varied. Fighters are more specialized.