Why simpler - much simpler - is better

[Dannyalcatraz]

Numenera is one of the more impressive rules-light systems I've seen in quite a while.

 

[Neonchameleon]

(I played a campaign of Dresden Files; it's horribly complex. I haven't finished working through your list yet, but some of the others you named are also pretty complicated.)

Fate Core and Fate Accelerated are both much, much simpler than Dresden Files which is why I mentioned the first two on my initial list and only used Dresden Files about the popularity of the system. The complexity in Dresden Files comes from two things - firstly the spellcasting (not in Fate Core/FAE - it's Dresdenverse specific), and secondly the stunt rules. And stunts have been massively simplified between Fate 3.0 (Spirit of the Century/Dresden Files) and Fate Core. In Fate Core/FAE you only get five aspects (one high concept, one trouble, three others) - and stunts are now of the format
Because I _______ then (One of the below)

• 1/Session I can do [Big thing]
• when using [skill] in [way] I get +2
• when using [skill] in [way] I can use [other skill] instead

You also get far fewer stunts in Fate Core than the potential refresh of 10 in Dresden Files would allow.

I've taught FAE to two separate groups within a session with no trouble at all. I'd not care to try with Dresden Files.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, it's free for the moose that walk around my neighborhood.

So that IS what you mean by hiking!

Don't get me wrong; it's a nice activity. I like doing it too, as much as possible. And I actually have some actual hiking and mountain biking trails that abut my neighborhood, that are easily within walking distance for a nice afternoon jaunt.

But usually when refering to the hobby of hiking, that's not what I'm talking about. Neither are most others who use the word, in my experience.

 

[Janx]

Then don't. But I get computers for free, hike in street clothes, access academic journals as part of my (tuition free) university enrollment, and so on. Of course my shoes might not wear out quite as fast, and I might not need to eat as much food, if instead of pursuing an active lifestyle I maintained a state of hibernation in between tasks.

I think you might need to take a perspective check and realize that if you're getting everything free, that you aren't in the "normal" range of the standard deviation. You are a student. and most students don't have money. That greatly shapes their thinking that doesn't apply to the rest of the working class popupulation (aka people who have money).

Hiking means walking down nature trails or going freestyle in the wilderness. it usually entails proper socks and boots. Which in turn entails a drive to get there (for most people who don't already live in the woods). Walking around your neighbood is called "going for a walk" and is not generally respected as "being the same thing as hiking" unless you live in the aforementioned woods.

Computers are not free for most people. Nor is internet access. Cost is a considerable part of what some people call the Digital Divide, for those who have, and those who have not. If you are getting this stuff for free and do not respect that you are in a privileged situation, then you are not respecting that somebody else's resources are being spent unwisely on you.

In short, the fastest way to lose credibility in a hobby discussion is to complain about costs for things, and then reveal you're living off somebody else's dime. Everybody in a hobby paid the price of admission because they can afford to do so. Since the general cost of playing an RPG like D&D is still quite cheaper than many other hobbies (like remote control cars, sailing, bowling, etc), there's no merit to the discussion unless we were talking about a specific RPG with a a significantly higher cost than most other RPGs.

I'd stick to your other points. Money is not a good one.

 

[Desdichado]

Dangit! Must spread reputation first!

Good one, Janx!

 

[Blackbrrd]

I think you might need to take a perspective check and realize that if you're getting everything free, that you aren't in the "normal" range of the standard deviation. You are a student. and most students don't have money. That greatly shapes their thinking that doesn't apply to the rest of the working class popupulation (aka people who have money).

Hiking means walking down nature trails or going freestyle in the wilderness. it usually entails proper socks and boots. Which in turn entails a drive to get there (for most people who don't already live in the woods). Walking around your neighbood is called "going for a walk" and is not generally respected as "being the same thing as hiking" unless you live in the aforementioned woods.

Computers are not free for most people. Nor is internet access. Cost is a considerable part of what some people call the Digital Divide, for those who have, and those who have not. If you are getting this stuff for free and do not respect that you are in a privileged situation, then you are not respecting that somebody else's resources are being spent unwisely on you.

In short, the fastest way to lose credibility in a hobby discussion is to complain about costs for things, and then reveal you're living off somebody else's dime. Everybody in a hobby paid the price of admission because they can afford to do so. Since the general cost of playing an RPG like D&D is still quite cheaper than many other hobbies (like remote control cars, sailing, bowling, etc), there's no merit to the discussion unless we were talking about a specific RPG with a a significantly higher cost than most other RPGs.

I'd stick to your other points. Money is not a good one.

Slightly amusing, but I played and DM-ed 3e/4e for a number of years and didn't own a single book. I borrowed them - which is free.

I also go hiking from where I live, right into a nice hilly forrest. I often use the same shoes to work, which is a 15 minute walk. It's also a 20 minute walk to the college I went to. Neat eh?

Anyway, playing pen-and-paper rpg's is the cheapest hobby I have. I bought a car so I could go hiking in other locations, I bought a better computer to play video games and I have bought a lot more novels than I have bought RPG books. And cross country skiing is quite expensive when you want clothes that withstands -15 celsius and some wind.

 

[Janx]

Dangit! Must spread reputation first!

Good one, Janx!

Thanks.

I don't want to get into politics or discussions about how people spend their money, but it really chaps my grits when people in an xbox forum complain about the cost of a $1 DLC (where game titles regularly cost $60) or in an RPG forum where it's like $5 for dice and $20-30 for a player's handbook.

If you choose to get into a hobby, it inherently has costs. If you can't afford those costs, you don't get to participate in the hobby. i learned that lesson when I was a kid living on welfare. There's a metric ton of activities I didn't get to do. Now I have a job, and have money, and things like RPG gaming is pretty cheap in comparison to all the other hobbies. Barring the expensive outliers (like Kenzerco's pricier products), or people stuck into completionist spending), complaining about the price of playing an RPG is just whining.

And by all means, I have $2000 in 2e D&D books that I bought while I was in college making $4.25 because I could afford it (over time, not in one shopping trip). But I chose to collect and spend that much. To actually play, is less than $100, which is far less than what people spend on video games.

 

[Desdichado]

And you can get a dice-roller app for free (I'd guess; I haven't actually looked for one, because I like real dice) and play games that are free, like m20 or Swords & Wizardry, Labyrinth Lord or something, then I really have no sympathy for folks who complain about the price of RPG products. Are there products that are priced higher than I'm willing to pay for them? Sure! I think the Ptolus package was absurdly overpriced. So I didn't buy it. I thought that the Pathfinder campaign setting was a bit overpriced. It was $10 more than the Eberron or Forgotten Realms setting, and yet about 100 pages less.

I bought it anyway, because I thought it was worth it--it was a good product, and I didn't love the price, but it was still worth it to me.

:shrug: Makes sense to me. I have some disposible income to spend on hobbies, so I decide what I want to spend it on. I can't do everything that I want to (I'd love to have a big new Jeep with a 4.5 inch lift kit to get me to remote trailheads, for example, but I'm not holding my breath that that'll happen anytime really soon) so I have to decide what to get and make decisions based on what I can afford, and what I really want.

But given the fact that the hobby can be done for practically nothing if you want it to be, means that there's not a lot of sympathy for folks who aren't willing to pay for the stuff that you need to pay for, or who complain about it, at least.

 

[Janx]

Slightly amusing, but I played and DM-ed 3e/4e for a number of years and didn't own a single book. I borrowed them - which is free.

I also go hiking from where I live, right into a nice hilly forrest. I often use the same shoes to work, which is a 15 minute walk. It's also a 20 minute walk to the college I went to. Neat eh?

Anyway, playing pen-and-paper rpg's is the cheapest hobby I have. I bought a car so I could go hiking in other locations, I bought a better computer to play video games and I have bought a lot more novels than I have bought RPG books. And cross country skiing is quite expensive when you want clothes that withstands -15 celsius and some wind.

and your point is?

Mine was that expecting everything to be priced for free and for everybody to be living in the "it's all free" economy was not realistic or helpful. Most people buy their own books, especially GMs.

Given how cheap RPGs are (something we both agree on), dickering on about cost of gaming is nonsense.

As you noted, skiing can be pricey. Somebody (like the OP) who seems to live his hobby life specifically through free-ness isn't really relating to the majority of society or the RPG playing demographic even.

 

[Greg K]

Other PbtA games worth noting are

• Apocalypse World - the game the system itself was designed for. The setting is post-apocalyptic with possible threats including the environment and Mad Max style motorcycle gangs. But again this is discovered in setup and play.
• Monsterhearts - IMO the best implementation of the system. High school teen drama/paranormal romance and it is awesome and very, very immersive (I've had more bleed from Monsterhearts characters than all other games combined). Your gaming group might not be one to introduce it to.
• Tremulus - Lovecraftian horror in a system where any dice roll can fail entertainingly. I haven't actually played it so I'll link to John Rogers.

Why no mention of Monster of the Week? I have seen several claims that it the best implementation of the AW Engine.