D&D 5E Why stop at Level 20?

[jgsugden]

Just because there are technically rules for higher than 10th level play doesn't mean the system does a good job at supporting that tier of play. The published content for levels 10+ is sorely lacking - whether advice for how to run games or published adventures. WotC has just sort of swept it under the rug, as if there is no assumption that anyone actually plays those levels.

My experience has been that the game completely breaks down around 10th level. (Actually probably closer to 5th level.)

I suggest listening to some podcasts of higher level 5E play, such as the tail end of the Critical Role first campaign.

While there has prviously been a slightly lss than idea number of released creatures for higher level play, there has been enough. Everything else works. I've had great high level games, I've listened to great high level games.... often, the problem with high level games is not the rules, but is people burning out on the game. That can be addressed through evolution of the game to give characters a feel that the game is constantly moving forward.

Seriously - there are a lot of great success stories out there that are irrefutable proof the game can work great at high levels.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

So, exactly why would one need epic "levels" when there are already rules for continued advancement, including additional ASIs/Feats and Epic Boon kewl powerz right there in the Dungeon Master's Guide? Is there some reason there needs to be a "Level 21"?

 

[Oofta]

Already?? The game has only been out since 2014 or 2015.

hmm.

Yep. My wife's campaign started with the playtest material in 2014 after my 4E campaign wrapped up. I ran two somewhat simultaneous campaigns in part to give her a chance to play and to introduce friends to the game starting in 2015. The two campaigns I ran eventually merged. So hers was close to 4 years, mine was about 3 years.

But I'm sure others have been in more campaigns than that which got all the way to 20th. It largely depends on how quickly the group wants to level. I know our AL store has people playing tier 4 (15-20). I started a PC last February and he's already level 9. I may switch characters when the current arc is done, but if I continue to play he could hit level 20 in little over a year .

Or I'm just full of hot air and nobody in my AL plays epic level characters, the character sheets for characters above 10th level dissolve into goo when you try to play them and I never threw multiple epic level monsters based on Tarrasques and ancient red dragons at our combined group final epic battle royale. Just don't tell my players because apparently we hallucinated it all.

 

[dave2008]

Already?? The game has only been out since 2014 or 2015.

hmm. Was it just one person campaign? Frequency of play? I can't fathom this.

There are some people on these forums who got the level 20 in about 1 year, so they have done it multiple times by now. Persoanlly I level much slower. However, whenever we start a new edition we run a few one shot adventures at the max level. So we ran through a 20th level adventure, if not a whole campaign.

EDIT: Also, both RoT and OotA went to level 15 and were expected to be completed in a little less than a year. So getting to campaigns to level 20 should not be out of the realm of possibility. Heck I remember reading several threads on these forums about how to extend those campaigns (mostly OotA) to 20th level.

 

[Yunru]

Yep. My wife's campaign started with the playtest material in 2014 after my 4E campaign wrapped up. I ran two somewhat simultaneous campaigns in part to give her a chance to play and to introduce friends to the game starting in 2015. The two campaigns I ran eventually merged. So hers was close to 4 years, mine was about 3 years.

But I'm sure others have been in more campaigns than that which got all the way to 20th. It largely depends on how quickly the group wants to level. I know our AL store has people playing tier 4 (15-20). I started a PC last February and he's already level 9. I may switch characters when the current arc is done, but if I continue to play he could hit level 20 in little over a year .

Or I'm just full of hot air and nobody in my AL plays epic level characters, the character sheets for characters above 10th level dissolve into goo when you try to play them and I never threw multiple epic level monsters based on Tarrasques and ancient red dragons at our combined group final epic battle royale. Just don't tell my players because apparently we hallucinated it all.

Pretty sure you were tripping.
Evidence:

• Physical items were apparently spontaneously dissolving in front of you.
• Hallucinations.
• Throwing multiple Tarrasques at a party.

 

[Oofta]

Pretty sure you were tripping.
Evidence:

• Physical items were apparently spontaneously dissolving in front of you.
• Hallucinations.
• Throwing multiple Tarrasques at a party.

Well, the tarrasques were just guards for the BBEG.

 

[Retreater]

I don't consider Critical Role productions to be official D&D content to show how to run an epic campaign or provide guidelines on how to do it. It's a performance.
And yeah, for me the first few levels are too deadly. Starting around level 5 the party starts getting the upper hand pretty easily. After about 10th level, the characters don't even have to bother rolling. It's basically auto success on everything (or TPK).
5E as written does a terrible job of conveying threat, challenge, and intensity in combat. I'm starting to view it as the most milquetoast edition I've ever played.

 

[dave2008]

I don't consider Critical Role productions to be official D&D content to show how to run an epic campaign or provide guidelines on how to do it. It's a performance.
And yeah, for me the first few levels are too deadly. Starting around level 5 the party starts getting the upper hand pretty easily. After about 10th level, the characters don't even have to bother rolling. It's basically auto success on everything (or TPK).
5E as written does a terrible job of conveying threat, challenge, and intensity in combat. I'm starting to view it as the most milquetoast edition I've ever played.

The tough thing is D&D is different for every group. Now, I am not sure what you mean by "as written," but my group is 12th level right now and I have no trouble providing intense and challenging combat. We play pretty much RAW, but I (the DM) don't use any of the treasure or encounter guidelines. So I think my group tends to be low on magic items and I have no idea how my combats correlate to the guidelines in the DMG. Generally speaking I have made 5e more challenging than 1e and about the same as 4e, but some of that is because after about 30 years of playing I'm just a better DM.

 

[pogre]

It may be telling that I started this thread over a year ago and still have not had a campaign as a DM or Player go anywhere near level 20.

I still remain intrigued by epic play.

 

[ad_hoc]

I don't consider Critical Role productions to be official D&D content to show how to run an epic campaign or provide guidelines on how to do it. It's a performance.
And yeah, for me the first few levels are too deadly. Starting around level 5 the party starts getting the upper hand pretty easily. After about 10th level, the characters don't even have to bother rolling. It's basically auto success on everything (or TPK).
5E as written does a terrible job of conveying threat, challenge, and intensity in combat. I'm starting to view it as the most milquetoast edition I've ever played.

How do you explain over 15 million people playing just fine?

Are they all doing it wrong?