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Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
First of all, as I said the Red Box is more of a taster and learn-how-to-play product and less of a set that you can use to play the game for many game sessions. In other words, it is not the old Red Box, which covered a bunch of levels, not just two.

A bunch of levels? Let's get this right: the original Basic set, the revised Moldvay edition and the revised Mentzer (Red Box) edition all covered a massive three levels.

Due to the different pace of advancement, plus the additional level, it would probably give more play hours than the current Basic set does before additional materials are required. My estimation is that the current Basic set will allow a campaign to start and play for four or five sessions or thereabouts - about 16-20 hours play.

Incidentally, due to the differing rates of advancement in Basic D&D (Moldvay), a group would need the Expert set when the thief reached 4800 XP, with the magic-user not yet third level, and the elf having only just achieved second level! This is not quite as much play as you might expect!

This isn't to say that those original Basic sets were flawed - by no means! The Moldvay set is still - in my opinion - the best Basic RPG set I've ever seen, far outstripping the 4e sets. However, all of the Basic sets are no more than "taster" sets. They are enough to introduce players to D&D and roleplaying and set down the groundwork for what would follow as they moved into more advanced forms of the game - either Expert D&D or Advanced D&D. Or Essentials. Or 4E.

Cheers!
 

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I think geting new players into any game isn't about its simplicity. It's about "Time to Game", e.g. how long does it take (and how much money does it cost) since you're actively playing the game?

Computer games are very quick at that. The longest part is usually the installation process (imagine that could be cut down!). But you can pick it up quickly. That doesn't have to mean the game is simple. It's just that it provides an easy entrance point.

If you got the basic Dominion set, you can instantly play the game. The rules are really simple. Yet the game is actually very complex and difficult to master and allows a very deep and long gameplay.

Maybe that's where all basic sets fail - they provide the quick entrance, but they don't necessarily give you the depth. But maybe that's just something you can't do with one single box? Maybe it's okay to require 2 additional products (which I think would cover 30 levels of play - the DM box and the Heroes of the Fallen Lands if we speak on the Essentials Red Box)? For computer games, if you want 5 people playing together, everyone has to buy one copy.
 

nedjer

Adventurer
The 3 Level Starter Set remains the 3 Level Starter Set because it leads directly to brand dummification/ dependency.

Long, long ago all we had was a 3 Level Starter Set and the PH was several months away from the UK. So we built on what was there by extending the basics. 4th -7th level followed with a growing realisation that one little book could template an entire RPG.

As with 1-3, this made for a game where players still didn't have enough spells, nifty skills and magic items to dispatch anything more than a few orcs unless they were prepared to come up with solutions from outwith the rule set, e.g. the magic missile wasn't going to take out six stirges, but those fishing nets and some bait could fix them good. Play was a) exciting b) fast and c) interpretive.

This was blown out of the water, in turn, by the PH and DMG. Instead of reaching for novel solutions everyone reached for the manual and then began the dummification. No more netting and cooking crunchy stirges. Just, fireball, that's them obliterated and what's the next monster I can use the rule set to beat up on.

The think 'horse' was placed behind the grind 'cart' and before long players, (who'd been sweating it over a couple of trolls), were power-gaming, win-mentality, optimal advancement, rules-lawyering fiends. So much so that one group went from playing 5th-6th level to taking on Demigorgon in a matter of weeks. (Of course they 'won').

The 3 Level Starter Set, therefore, avoids the 'danger' that players will realise that they can go their own way with relative ease, and that a lot of the most exciting play results from loosen and tightening the reins, instead of simply lashing everything down.

Unsurprisingly, publishers live in fear of the 5 or 7 Level Starter Set, as players would get used to being more interpretive and improvisational, have longer to decide whether or not to invest in manuals, and be far better placed to switch systems or design their own extensions.

For a large publisher, the profitable approach is seen (mistakenly) as double-dummification, where the combination of rules (as litany) and brand (as prophet) mesmerises the otherwise intelligent player into believing that yet another manual actually adds more to the game than they could add by themselves.

So, when was the last time you told a player she/ he could try out their new tattoist-pitfighter sub-class, or chucked a rainbow phase spider into play with adaptive defenses, or let your players discuss the best way to cook a stirge with the orcs who consider them a rare delicacy worth the effort of trading? :)
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
So, when was the last time you told a player she/ he could try out their new tattoist-pitfighter sub-class, or chucked a rainbow phase spider into play with adaptive defenses, or let your players discuss the best way to cook a stirge with the orcs who consider them a rare delicacy worth the effort of trading? :)

Emphasis mine...

Not recently, but I will soon. Thanks for the great idea.

and to answer what I think is your underlying question...we don't use the rules as a straightjacket, we use them as a guideline and starting point.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Because they are both closely associated with the primary brand? There might be other reasons to like both games, and others, but that close association with the brand is what gives you a shot at being on top.

D&D is associated with D&D. A new player, learning from scratch, would have no idea what Pathfinder is until they looked at it.
 

Camelot

Adventurer
D&D 4e attracted me to tabletop roleplaying games. I've since taught the game to ten other people, none of whom had ever played tabletop roleplaying games before, some of whom had never played computer roleplaying games before, and they all understood it after a few weeks at most. I've looked back at older games, including the earlier editions of D&D, and thought that they were way more complicated than D&D 4th edition.

New games do just as good a job at attracting new players as the old games did, and complexity has nothing to do with it.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Maybe this is nostalgia, but I've been thinking about this lately, and I really have begun to believe that the modern D&D variants, Pathfinder and 4E, just won't attract the new players that people want them to attract. Here's why:

The default character rules are just too complicated.

Bosh. Roll some dice, pick a race/class, get help picking a feat and some spells. Done. Easier than registering for community college, and the prerequisite rules are much easier to understand.

First look at the character sheets. They are likely 2 pages, at least (and in 4E case, sometimes a lot longer). There can be some very esoteric abbreviations or words placed on the page, that a new player must walked through. It takes a long time to explain each power, stat, etc etc etc.

"This is a magic missile. It does damage to monsters."
"This is Power Attack. It allows you to swing harder, but less accurately."
"This is Dodge. It helps you avoid attacks, as the name suggests."
"This is Weapon Focus. It means you are particularly good with cooking. Just kidding. It means you are particularly good with a weapon."

It is unclear, when you sit down to look at a character sheet, what that character is good at.

Far less so than in previous editions. Unless you gathered that low AC was good and high hit points were good, you would have a heck of a time making even basic sense.


Thinking back to my first time playing, what was on my character sheet? There was a name, a race, a class, an alignment, six basic stats, my ac, the number I needed to roll to hit something and some items.

... languages known, % Hear Noise (what?), AC (without shield), five saving throws, "prime requisites," etc...

Now, it's the same, except NPWs are now called Feats and Skills, there are fewer saving throws, situational ACs are spelled out, and the ability score bonuses are unified and can be determined without looking at six or eight charts.

These things are either pretty self explanatory, or take a minimum amount of time to explain them. Class write ups were a page or 2, and seemed to be mostly fluff.

Actually beyond recommending a cleric pick a deity (Red Box), indicating they need not (Cyclopedia), or strongly suggesting they do (AD&D), there is very little fluff in the writeups. Mostly you have weirdly long descriptions of what happens when you turn name level, or if you violate your class restrictions, and so forth.

There were plenty of additional rules, that could be added to make the game much more complex, but at it's basic, it was a pretty simple process to create, and understand a character sheet.

Sure, back then, there was a lot more pressure put on the DM to adjudicate the rules than in Modern Variants, but at the same time, that's fine, because it means only one person at the table has to be a master of the rules.

So, I know people think the new 4E Red Box and the Intro Box Paizo has planned will bring in new players, but I really don't see them doing that. Instead, you must have a Basic version of your game that is a complete game, not just the first couple of levels.

What's the huge difference between a 2-level game and a 3-level game? The original Red Box was the most successful intro set in the history of the universe.

There needs to be a way to build a character for Red Box and Pathfinder where the character is suitably interesting but doesn't have much more to it than what Old School D&D did, while still keeping with the flavor of the rules of that system.

I know essentials was that attempt, but honestly, I don't know if it's simple enough. If I plop down a character sheet in front of a new player, would they have a pretty good understanding of what their character can do in 5 minutes?
]

I can't even imagine what such a game would look like. Even if you were using something like Hero Quest or Maelstrom or Risus, and it said something like, "Good with shotguns," it would be hard to get a really clear picture of your capabilities without understanding the system.


Maybe I'm wrong about what a new player needs, I haven't been a new player in years, and I'm sure 99% of the people on this board are in the same boat, we are likely pretty experienced with RPGs. But I feel like a lot of people started play with a more basic version of D&D, and added things in to it. How do you do that right now with 4E and Pathfinder? They are very complex games to begin with.

They need structure, clear language, attractive art, and a resolution system that is not too taxing. Pathfinder has it, D&D 4e is getting there, most "rules-lite" games lack any of that.
 

TarionzCousin

Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
Haven't WotC employees claimed on their blogs and elsewhere that 4E outsold all of their expectations and that it was the best-selling edition in D&D history?*

That doesn't seem to gibe with the OP's claim that new players aren't playing it. In my personal experience, between 20% and 33% of people I've played 4E with have never played D&D before. I call those people "new players."





*My Google-Fu is exceptionally weak this morning and I have not found any online evidence to support this. I blame the fact that I haven't eaten breakfast yet. XP to whomever links to evidence to back my claim!
 

Cor_Malek

First Post
*My Google-Fu is exceptionally weak this morning and I have not found any online evidence to support this. I blame the fact that I haven't eaten breakfast yet. XP to whomever links to evidence to back my claim!

Wax on... wax off. Wax on... wax off.

Searched by: "d&d 4th outsold"

We can even keep it down to the trusted source of ICv2 :)
ICv2 - D&D 4E Back to Press
Sell-in of 4th Edition has “far exceeded expectations” and even though the initial print run for 4th Edition was 50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition, WotC has now realized that it is necessary to go back to press to meet anticipated reorder demand.

And it's not like title of Best Selling Author hurts either: mearls: From the "I'll Take It Where I Can Get It" Department

[/me finds the quotes]
TarionzCousin: How did you do that? How did you do that?
Cor Malek: Don't know. First time.

PS.: If you can fish it out: supposedly, somewhere within this interview Mike Mearls drops an "outsold" line.
 
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buddhafrog

First Post
This year alone, I've taught 20+ kids how to play D&D -- almost all are Koreans with varying degrees of English proficiency, ages 10-15. It's not too hard. What is lost through the confusion is gained through interesting gameplay.

I do agree with the specific point that the character sheet is a mess. Is that the best designed sheet WotC could come up with? I use Shado's Character Sheet pdf - it's much more coherent (although not perfect)
 

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