Why Worldbuilding is Bad

[Raven Crowking]

I could just make up a conspiracy theory, say that kobolds controlled the world. People who deny it work for the kobolds. This sort of thing has, built into it, a narrative that you can use to completely dismiss objections to your theory. In fact, the more people object, the more you can convince yourself that you're on to something. A person doing that is not actually listening anymore to what people are saying, just absorbing comments into their framework and using it to build up the fantasy.

That's actually a serious problem with Freudian analysis, too.

RC

 

[rounser]

You're trying to take some sort of "moral high-ground" at times but it's going to take some will-power to keep from slipping back into these imaginary excursions into other people's motivations.

Thirty years of published settings and homebrews as the pride of D&D and 3rd party publishers, forming their own little mini-cults like no other aspect of the game can except different editions, and I'm imagining it all. Yes, one of us is definitely divorced from reality.

 

[Hussar]

So you keep insisting with tautological fervor. But, like I said, I'm deeply suspicious of people who try to redefine commonly used terms in order to prove some sort of nebulous and ill-conceived point.

So, Wiki is redifining a commonly used term? Wow. I guess wiki isn't a decent source of common thought at all.

What about the "23 grasses of the Shaar plains"? Yeah, Greenwood is a great, clomping nerd. He isn't designing for relevance. He's just futzing around with his world and fanboys read all about it. Does that mean a game cannot be played there? No. Does it mean the 23 grasses are wasted creation? I say no to that too. But they are extraordinarily irrelevant until a PC takes interest in grassland botany.

And that's pretty much my point in a nutshell. Most of world building is creating 23 grasses, even if its on a smaller scale.

My point isn't you should improv world building or that you should do prepared world building. My point is that you don't need to do world building at all.

Compare, for a moment, Ed Greenwood's Realms articles to Vicious Venues. You could easily build upon those VV articles to create an entire campaign. Nice little linked locations that are mostly self contained. To do the same with the Realms articles, you have to contrive some pretty bizarre circumstances like finding a way to make 23 kinds of grass relavent or the shape of windows.

Yes, I realize that we are all creative enough to contrive situations where the fact that windows are square (like anyone would assume that they weren't), but, I'm still going to file those articles in the same place as Elven Tea Ceremonies.

 

[Hussar]

Look, what I'm advocating isn't ground breaking or particularly new. It's not. What I'm trying to say is that, for the homebrewer, the DM might be better served in emulating Green Ronin's Freeport, Goodman Games DCC's or AEG's World's Largest Dungeon rather than Forgotten Realms, Scarred Lands or Eberron.

If you go the FR route, whether you go top down or bottom up, you are, IMO, placing setting first. You are creating world independently of adventure. Granted, that process may lead to adventure creation, that's true, but, why not skip the middle man? The adventures are the important thing.

If you go the Goodman Games route, instead, then you craft adventures, based on whatever criteria. At the end of the process (if it ever ends) you are left with functional adventures rather than simply adventure ideas that then need to be turned into adventures.

After you have your collection of adventures, then you work out any setting that you might need that follows from those adventures.

I realize that this is going against the grain of what's been inculcated into the collective brains of DM's over the past couple of decades. After all, Tolkien created setting first, story second, so, why shouldn't we? Ed Greenwood did exactly the same thing as well - stories of FR first appeared in Dragon without any module support and people ate it up. Second Edition is littered with setting after setting. Really, the only settings that started with adventures first would be Greyhawk and Dragonlance (possibly Mystara as well) and, from DL, we have the sense that adventure first=railroad.

My point is, if you go setting first, world building first, whatever you want to call it, you are going to do a lot of extraneous work. True, you can fit that work into the adventures, but, then you run into the danger of forcing square pegs into round holes of contriving your scenarios so that the work you did becomes relevant. So that square windows somehow figure into your adventures.

Like I say, this is hardly a new concept. Heretical perhaps now, but hardly new. Heck, The Keep on the Borderlands is as generic as you can possibly make an adventure - the NPC's don't even have names! Yet, this is still held up as a very solid, very good module by a lot of people.

I know bodybuilding is all the rage, but, honestly, try yoga. It does wonders.

 

[khyron1144]

I like to go to the forums at Campaign Builder's Guild with others that like to spend a lot of time on world-building. They have contests to see who can design the best whatever. This month, the chosen subject is taverns. I had a good idea, so I wrote this up:

[sblock]
Physical description: The King of Coins appears to be a one-story building with approximate dimensions of fifteen feet tall by fifty feet wide (east to west dimension) by fifty feet long (north to south dimension). The common room, which is the one that guest coming in from the street will enter, is about thirty feet long by forty feet wide. The door marked Private leads to a very boring storage room where beer kegs are kept and so on. This room is about twenty feet long by forty feet wide. There's a door on its west wall, leading to a tiny, little ten foot by ten foot kitchen. The unmarked door leads to a nicely furnished office, ten feet wide by thirty feet long.

That's the stuff that's obvious to the naked eye. Anyone that carefully paces it out will notice the about ten by ten area of "missing" space. Of course, PCs should be kept too busy to carefully pace it out. The office has a secret door in the north wall that leads to the "missing room". (Search DC 25 to find the secret door where relevant). This room is used by Smashfiste as a secure treasure room for anything he's about to liquidate. If the solid oak desk is moved (this should take a minimum D&D Strenght score of 16 to accomplish), a trapdoor in the floor can be found, which leads to Smashfiste's complex of tunnels that provide alternate entrances and exits and include a few secret rooms where valuables too hot to be easily fenced are kept to age.

Background: Five years ago a new tavern sprung up on the Street of Coins, taking its cue from The Ace of Swords (Street of Swords), Queen of Wands (Street of Wands) and Page of Cups (Street of Cups), this place was named The King of Coins. Since the Street of Coins was a vastly different sort of neighborhood, the clientelle it cultivated was different. Richer for one thing.

It's a silent partnership between Morton Ostler and "Lucky" "Four-Fingers" Smashfiste. Ostler is a friendly face and competent tavern manager. Smashfiste is a batttle-scarred half-ogre leg-breaker with a lot of money and a desire to earn more without doing so much hard work. Smashfiste decided to finance a tavern as the front for the new gang he was heading. Ostler was simply lucky enough to find someone willing to finance "his" tavern.

Morton Ostler is the owner of record for the King of Coins, but it was built to Smashfiste's specifications and with his money. The builders were dwarfs fresh in from the mountains; their corpses buried under the tunnel's floor tiles is nasty secret #305 about The King of Coins. Smashfiste's Coin Street Irregulars meet in the hidden rooms to plot.

Smashfiste invented the Mailed Fist to the Head accidentally. He doesn't go in for mixed drinks much, but one night he was out of beer and found an intersting result when he mixed certain things together in the right doses. Only Ostler can make them reliably.



"Lucky" "Four-Fingers" Smashfiste is a battle-scarred half-ogre. He's missing one finger on his right hand and his sword has a custom grip to take that into account. He wears stylish clothes in bright colors, but always has his sword on one hip too. Like most half-ogres he's as ugly as sin. Unlike most half-ogres he's pretty sharp. He got his start as a leg-breaker for someone else's racket and he is not averse to violence. He is however quite willing to let threats, explicit or implied, do the work of actual violence whenever possible.[/sblock]



Is this excessive? I think it isn't because, while knowing the details of the Smashfiste and Ostler might be not immediately relevant, it has a lot of adventure potential.

 

[Hussar]

Is this excessive? I think it isn't because, while knowing the details of the Smashfiste and Ostler might be not immediately relevant, it has a lot of adventure potential.

Is it excessive for what though? For a website project devoted to world building? Probably not.

However, as a different approach, why not conceive of an adventure first. Perhaps it's something as simple as killing giant rats in the cellar of a tavern. Ok, now we need a tavern. Tavern's should have names. You need a tavern owner to hire the PC's. Now, you don't need the whole front man bit at all and the clientelle isn't really all that necessary either.

If, OTOH, your adventure is investigating and breaking up the local thieves guild (or possibly joining it), then the front man bit is necessary. The clientelle is also quite possibly necessary as well depending on the needs of the adventure.

This is my whole point in a nutshell. Instead of taking the time to make a very cool tavern, why not make a very cool adventure and then any details you require come out of the needs of that adventure?

 

[Hussar]

But then...



So what is it that you understand? You're trying to take some sort of "moral high-ground" at times but it's going to take some will-power to keep from slipping back into these imaginary excursions into other people's motivations.

It's easier for you to believe that the firmness of people's objections is due to some flaw in their personality rather than simply finding your reasoning to be strange, your fears exaggerated, and your definitions of words unusable.

I could just make up a conspiracy theory, say that kobolds controlled the world. People who deny it work for the kobolds. This sort of thing has, built into it, a narrative that you can use to completely dismiss objections to your theory. In fact, the more people object, the more you can convince yourself that you're on to something. A person doing that is not actually listening anymore to what people are saying, just absorbing comments into their framework and using it to build up the fantasy.

Just to add to the conspiracy theory:

Rich Burlew's World Building Project

Yeah, there's no movement in the gaming community to push setting first. Sites like Fargoth, Urbis etc are all just figments of my diseased imagination. No one would ever create six hundred page documents for their homebrew campaign. No sir, that would never happen.

 

[khyron1144]

1) Is it excessive for what though? For a website project devoted to world building? Probably not.

2) This is my whole point in a nutshell. Instead of taking the time to make a very cool tavern, why not make a very cool adventure and then any details you require come out of the needs of that adventure?

1) Alright, that is a good point.

2) It's not usually the way I operate, but there probably is more sense in this approach.

You might dig this:

[sblock]Castle Granite
[This is the introductory text I've written to an adventure that I've started writing but haven't tried to run yet. The bracketed bits are my comments directly to you, the audience. How things start is often murky with events getting disordered and justifications being made up after the fact. Such is the genesis of this project. As far as I can figure the following events came together some time last year: my acquisition of the orignal AD&D hardbacks Unearthed Arcana, Oriental Adventures and Fiend Folio making my collection of first edition rulebooks reasonably complete with the 1e PHB, DMG, MM, and MM2 that I already had; my starting to write the recent history of Tera, knowing that I wanted the current Emperor to be a scholar descended from a recently started dynasty and that the founder is a bit of a Conan-type figure, leading me to create Gladius Steel; and a back to school sale at Office Max where I picked up a bunch of one subject notebooks; somewhere along the line, I thought: it's a shame Gladius is part of the past relative to my current game; he'd be fun to run as an NPC buddy for the party; why don't I devote one of these notebooks to a classic dungeon-crawl style adventure set in Tera's past for 1e rules?]

They say all roads lead to Tera Prima, capital of the Human Empire on Tera. Probably because only humans are ambitious and arrogant enough to assemble the crew necessary to put in a road where a perfectly good forest was.
They also say it's a city rich in oppurtunities for those looking to earn fame and wealth by adventuring.
That's why you're there.
Everywhere there are posters saying: Emperor Manus Iron wants you for his legions. You've heard tell that the legions are still understaffed for The New Goblinoid War, even though the Emperor has begun recalling troops from the Beastlands mission that has the official name of Manus's Southern Expedition. Your slightly subversive grandpa calls it Manus's Folly.

[I am making a bit of a leap saying that the PCs all have slightly subversive grandpas, but I feel it is merited.]

For those that go willingly: The nearest recruitment office is surprisingly small and shabby. The man at the desk has an eyepatch and is missing two fingers on his left hand.
He says, "Thanks for considering the Legions. We just have a brief Physical. Let's see you can stand and walk under your own power. That's a definite plus. Now can you see the chart on the back wall? Okay how about the back wall then? Well, you're in. You'll be reporting to the Swords Street Barracks for further instruction."



For those with a weakness for women: You find your way to the seemier side of the city. One of the women of negotiable affection calls out from an alleyway. If they step into the alley: Just as you begin to engage her services, the world fades to black. When you wake up, you're on a cot in a room with a bunch of other cots. Judging by the uniforms of the other men in the room, you're in the Legions now.
If they pass up the alleyway: You find Miss Rose's Girls' Finishing School, and, knowing what Finishing School is a euphemism for in Tera Prima, you slip the bouncer a few coins to get in. You pay the headmistress for a girl and a room for the night. You have a reasonably good time and then fall asleep for the night. When you wake up, you're on a cot in a room with a bunch of other cots. Judging by the uniforms of the other men in the room, you're in the Legions now.




For those who prefer the fermented beverages: You make your way to the Ace of Swords, King of Wands, King of Coins, or Page of Cups. Whichever one: you buy drinks and after the third one everything goes black. When you wake up, you're on a cot in a room with a bunch of other cots. Judging by the uniforms of the other men in the room, you're in the Legions now.





For those who like a good brawl: You make your way to The Ace of Swords, famed far and wide as the best brawling tavern in all the Empire. There's about twenty in tonight's melee. (treat all combatants as Fighter 1s with AC 8 (leather armor), +2 to hit (Strength bonus), and doing 1d4+3 damage (tankards and chairs). Five immediately gang up on brawling PC. When PC is knocked unconscious: When you wake up, you're on a cot in a room with a bunch of other cots. Judging by the uniforms of the other men in the room, you're in the Legions now.


[Yes it's railroading, but it's railroading with style and it offers a decent illusion of choice. PCs can jump the tracks later by going AWOL or similar.]

In the barracks: A large man in a Legion uniform walks into the room and starts bellowing: "All right men, rise and shine. A new day is before us and so are a thousand ways to die valiantly. I'm your Sergeant, Gladius Steel. If you can get dressed and down to the mess in under a minute, you've got a cahnce to eat before you die. Seeing as to how it's grain mush, I wouldn't hurry though."

After finishing his inspirational speach, he walks out of the room and the more prepared Legionnaires file out of the room behind him. One of them mutters: "He says that every morning, but we've been drilling for a whole week now. I think he's eager to recieve combat orders."

"Must be his barbarian blood showing through," says another.

The mess is a large room with lots of tables. Along one side of the room, a line of Legionnaires are recieving a bowl of grain mush from a big, ugly, scary cook. One of your comrades-in-arms explains: "That's Smashfist; he's a half-ogre; they chose him for his way of discouraging folks asking for seconds."

The Sergeant strides back into the mess and says: " Well men, we've got orders. We're being sent to retake Castle Granite from the goblinoids. We don't know what we'll find there. That castle has been in Goblinoid hands for over a hundred years. That's a long time, but the Emperor syas we're not going to let any Tartru-spawned golbins use one of our own fortresses to launch attacks against us. Now, since a mere is not distinguished enough to lead this mission, they've assigned a nob with an academy commision to lead us. Let me present to you the Lieutenant Silvus Emerald."

When he ends his speach, a clean-shaven, young man in shiny polished armor and a family crest painted on his shield strides confidently into the room: "Once, you've finished your mush, report to quartemaster um..." he consults his notes. "Oh yes, Forthingay Fingers. What an odd name. Report to the quartermaster to receive your armaments. Once everyone's done that, we march."
[/sblock]


It seems to put adventure first and setting development second in a way, but it also exists as a way to develop the setting that I thought might be interesting by using it in an adventure.

 

[Hussar]

Exactly.

 

[Darth Shoju]

Just to add to the conspiracy theory:

Rich Burlew's World Building Project

Yeah, there's no movement in the gaming community to push setting first. Sites like Fargoth, Urbis etc are all just figments of my diseased imagination. No one would ever create six hundred page documents for their homebrew campaign. No sir, that would never happen.

I guess I just don't see this as a problem. I don't see a conspiracy or a movement. Are there a lot of settings out there, both amateur and professional? Yup. So what? If these people are running games where their players don't have anything to do but play tourists then that is their problem. Either the players are enjoying themselves and everything is cool, or they aren't and they should tell the DM.

I've pretty much reconciled myself to the fact I will never agree with your definition of worldbuilding. I see it as an act that encompasses the creation of the setting and is only a problem when it interferes with the group's enjoyment of the game. But frankly, I've yet to see a convincing argument that states that such problems aren't an issue with the DM rather than worldbuilding. It's already been pointed out that a bad DM can make a mess of any campaign, regardless of whether they start by making an adventure or start with a setting. If we lived in a world where books of generic encounters and books on adventure building outsold settings, would we say "adventure building is bad" if there were DMs running crappy railroaded adventures? I'd certainly hope not.

And I'm not terribly moved by the yoga/bodybuilding analogy; D&D is an indulgence unto itself. I guess I find it odd then to decry one indulgence as bad and another good; is it bad to put ice cream on cake? As long as you don't force someone to eat it, what difference does it make? We're not saving lives by writing adventures first and worldbuilders aren't killing puppies with every page they write.