Pathfinder 2E Will Pathfinder 2nd Edition Be Based on D&D 5E?

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.

There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of Pathfinder 2nd Edition, with some folks believing that it will be based on the D&D 5E rules engine, in a similar way to how the original Pathfinder was based of the D&D 3.5 rules engine. The evidence points to it not being so.
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In accordance with Betteridge's Law of Headlines, the quick answer is "no".

Paizo's Erik Mona says "While it's reasonable to assume that developments in other games have gone into some of our thinking with this new edition, it'd be wrong to assume that we're explicitly trying to make the game more like 5e, or like any other game. What we're trying to do is make the very best version of Pathfinder that we can."

But decide for yourself! The demo game on the Glass Cannon podcast doesn't sound much like D&D 5th Edition at all, certainly not to me. But give a listen and draw your own conclusions.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition will surely borrow concepts from a whole range of games, and 5E will almost certainly be notable amongst them. But even from the little description we have so far, I'm seeing influences from things like Cubicle 7's The One Ring, and other games.

While Paizo has said that Pathfinder 2nd Edition will be release under the Open Gaming License (the OGL) it's important to note that the OGL has been around for nearly two decades, and dozens of games are released under it (Pathfinder 1, Fate, Mutants & Masterminds, WOIN), none of which have the slightest thing to do with D&D 5E. There isn't a "5E OGL"; there's just the OGL. It doesn't contain any rules; it's just a way to license content to third parties. Paizo uses the OGL to license its game engine to its large array of third party publishers, and will be continuing to do so, whatever form that game engine comes in.

So why release it under the OGL? No matter what the system looks like, even if it diverged so far from D&D as to be utterly unrecognisable, many of the "nouns" of the system are rooted in D&D history -- spell names, monsters, and so on. "Magic Missile", for example, or "Ankheg", or a thousand other terms which were irrevocably made Open Gaming Content nearly twenty years ago and are a fundamental part of Pathfinder's identity as much as they are a part of D&D's identity. Pathfinder's "story" elements - those names - requires continuing access to those terms. That doesn't mean that the game system has anything to do with it, though, or that it needs to resemble 5E (or 4E, or 3E, or Fate, or WOIN, or any of several dozen OGL games). The OGL is a convenient and easy way to access those terms safely. There's no good reason not to use it.

I think it's safe to say at this point that Pathfinder 2nd Edition isn't a variation of D&D 5E. It's more likely to be an evolution of the 3.x ruleset, diverging from the path WotC took significantly, but influenced by many game design evolutions across the industry in the last decade. I'm sure you'll be able to see some 5E DNA in it, mixed in with the DNA of various other things, but it looks like Pathfinder 2nd Edition is very different to WotC's current game.

I mentioned that I'd be surprised to see Pathfinder 2 using even a single word from the 5E SRD. Erik Mona confirmed this. "It doesn't. This thing is far less 5e-inspired than people are assuming based on the first day of information we've dropped and the use of some similar terminology."

I mentioned the question of backward compatibility yesterday. Paizo says "While many of the rules of the game have changed, much of what made Pathfinder great has remained the same. The story of the game is unchanged, and in many cases, you can simply replace the old rules with their new counterpart without having to alter anything else about the adventure. As for individual rules, like your favorite spell or monster, most can be added with a simple conversion, changing a few numbers and rebalancing some of the mechanics."
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Superchunk77

Adventurer
If Pathfinder 2e moves in the same direction as the Starfinder rules, it could prompt me to switch from 5e. I enjoy the simplicity of 5e and hate the complexity of Pathfinder 1e, but I love the huge amount of customization options available in Pathfinder. IMO, 5e is "good" but there are a few mechanics I wish they didn't use.
 

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Honestly, starting with 5e as a basis and then building off that to make that look more like Pathfinder would probably result in a much better product that looking at Pathfinder, with all it's weird legacy rules and proud nails, and trying to revise that yet again.


But I hope they're not *just* looking at 5e.
They should be looking at the Foce Point mechanic and non-binary roll resolution from Fantasy Flight Games' Edge of the Empire product. They should be looking at the escalation dice and icons from 13th Age. They should be looking at the bond and moves (along with partial successes) from Dungeon World. They should be looking at aspects and compels from Fate.
They should be looking at all the cool new games published in the last decade and seeing what they can use to make Pathfinder even cooler.


And they should also look long and hard at 4e. At 4e and what changed from that edition to 5e. They should look at the rules WotC kept and the rules WotC dropped.
For example… monsters. In 4e, monsters had combat roles that determined all their abilities (hp, AC, defences, attack bonus, damage, etc). But that form of monster creation was dropped for 5e. Why?
That's a BIG question, as the simple monster creation in Pathfinder Unchained and Starfinder is very similar to the simple monster creation of 5e, only with three roles rather than five.
If Paizo is not looking at the company that upgraded a similar game twice already and looking at why they moved away from a design they're considering using…. It's could be a major a problem. Because it risks repeating a solved problem.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Honestly, starting with 5e as a basis and then building off that to make that look more like Pathfinder would probably result in a much better product that looking at Pathfinder, with all it's weird legacy rules and proud nails, and trying to revise that yet again.


But I hope they're not *just* looking at 5e.
They should be looking at the Foce Point mechanic and non-binary roll resolution from Fantasy Flight Games' Edge of the Empire product. They should be looking at the escalation dice and icons from 13th Age. They should be looking at the bond and moves (along with partial successes) from Dungeon World. They should be looking at aspects and compels from Fate.
They should be looking at all the cool new games published in the last decade and seeing what they can use to make Pathfinder even cooler.


And they should also look long and hard at 4e. At 4e and what changed from that edition to 5e. They should look at the rules WotC kept and the rules WotC dropped.
For example… monsters. In 4e, monsters had combat roles that determined all their abilities (hp, AC, defences, attack bonus, damage, etc). But that form of monster creation was dropped for 5e. Why?
That's a BIG question, as the simple monster creation in Pathfinder Unchained and Starfinder is very similar to the simple monster creation of 5e, only with three roles rather than five.
If Paizo is not looking at the company that upgraded a similar game twice already and looking at why they moved away from a design they're considering using…. It's could be a major a problem. Because it risks repeating a solved problem.

It’s almost like you haven’t read the announcement!
 

dave2008

Legend
Is there anything that explains how that works? Also, what if it's a spellcaster?

It is in the DMG, can remember the pages, but the Stats by CR table is really all you need. It has the AC, HP, attack bonus, and DPR all orgainized by CR. Ideally you would have an intuitive understanding of what modifies these characteristics, but you don't have to.
 
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dave2008

Legend
For those who haven't checked it out, the Alien Archive for Starfinder provides the nicest, smoothest rules for designing new monsters I've seen in a D20 edition game.

OK, since I love monster design, I just got the Alien Archive. Smoothest is subjective so I can't really address that, but it is definitely not the simplest. It is not as streamlined as 4e or 5e for that matter. But it may provide more depth than those (I need to read it through more to be sure). From the Overview it sounds like layering on a bunch of templates.

EDIT: Looked a little more. Definite 4e vibe, but more complex. Not what I consider "smooth" but does provide more depth if needed / warranted.

EDIT 2: I would probably do something similar if I were making a monster design guide. That could be good or bad, since I am not an experienced designer!
 

Matt Harbison

First Post
It's already been mentioned some, but I'm betting they will go more towards what is seen in Starfinder. Kind of like WOTC did with SW Saga Ed. and D&D 4E. SWSE was kind of a test ground for some new changes and 4E just built off of it.
 




Brodie

Explorer
Perhaps the OGL tag is just so they can keep using certain words and terms and this will be different from 3.5/d20. Perhaps Paizo is finally going all out creating an actual system just after launching a new product.

I don't know and frankly I'm not a mind right now to really care. I've barely had a chance to play either Pathfinder (I can count my actual experiences on both hands and have fingers left) or Starfinder (which I really want to play). They've undoubtedly done a ton to advance - and complicate even more - the system they based their game on in the past decade. When they were gearing up to announce Starfinder, I was talking to Jester about it and suggesting that maybe they were going to do a new edition of Pathfinder and maybe doing something in-house and proprietary that they could own fully. Sure, creating a system from scratch would take time and resources, but so does writing a novel.

I want a new system influenced by the old, by everything that's come before. I want a good fantasy RPG that encourages actual role playing and provides tools for players and GMs, tools that encourage social interaction as being just as viable as combat interaction. But I want a crunchy system. Hrm. Maybe I should just go back to L5R 4th Edition.
 

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