Will the real martial artist please stand up...

[Igwilly]

Of course I meant “Monks” in the RPG culture sense. Real monks are religious people. To the point that D&D ought to make them divine characters: apparently, this was the norm on 2e. I remember the 1e Monk having several supernatural abilities, the book just didn’t explain it; but it was there.
As far as I know, Batman transitioned from Charles Atlas Superpower to Badass Normal at some point in history. In fact, on its own page, Batman is called The Badass Normal. That happens.
There are some mistakes on that site when it comes to similar tropes. Some examples are doubled in both tropes despite those tropes being different. 4e’s martial classes are mentioned in both tropes. That also happens. Careful reading of the pages and examples can give you the difference.

Anyway, moving back to the main point…

I’m not arguing against a pure martial hand-to-hand class: it’s a cool class. Most of the 3.5 Monk’s abilities can be explained in martial terms, with some changes on mechanics, I grant you. I can also see someone learning the language of animals; D&D just doesn’t work that way, since those abilities are class-based or spell-based magical abilities. Nevertheless, it should: it is not such a powerful ability to be usable only once in a day or something like that. Most animals aren’t that bright, anyway.
I just always wondered why my Monk called Sun Wukong couldn’t launch a Kame-Hame-Ha, even with a different name. Monks in RPGs tend to have a very strong mystical/supernatural theme with them.
Yeah, there are some oddities in 4e’s martial powers, but the vast majority of them were just badass stuff. I think Martial healing itself is strange and not to my taste (and I’m a 4e fan); they will work slightly different differently in my game. However, of course, that brings back Lots of HP discussions, so let’s avoid that.
However, when monks are supernatural, they are usually based on Qi, not psionics. That choice had a lot of context to happen, ultimately being a consequence of design space.
So, I guess the real fight here is Ki Monk vs. Pure-Martial Monk. That is a hard choice to make. I’m not against having 50+ classes so splitting them sounds like a good idea.
I do have one question: if monks don’t have Qi stuff, who will? That seems a great dilemma for me; monks are perfect for that.

However, I think this is a tangential point and a discussion not really needed here. Forgive me for such interruption; sometimes I just have to do this just because. I’ll take a time to read this class (and re-read Pathfinder’s Brawler hybrid class), and them reflect more about that.
…

Really, guys, why every monk needs to know kung-fu? Hahahahahahahaha.

 

[Garthanos]

Of course I meant “Monks” in the RPG culture sense. Real monks are religious people. To the point that D&D ought to make them divine characters: apparently, this was the norm on 2e. I remember the 1e Monk having several supernatural abilities, the book just didn’t explain it; but it was there.

Yes I looked it up because I remembered the abilities being only vaguely supernatural and easily just extremes of martial prowess acupressure and a couple wierd eye blinkers like talking to plants.

As far as I know, Batman transitioned from Charles Atlas Superpower to Badass Normal at some point in history. In fact, on its own page, Batman is called The Badass Normal. That happens.

When Batman is hanging out with Superman he is arguably a different character (something to think about) he isn't solidly one or the other and I argue neither should these characters be. Because they do hang out with them explicit supernaturals.

There are some mistakes on that site when it comes to similar tropes. Some examples are doubled in both tropes despite those tropes being different. 4e’s martial classes are mentioned in both tropes. That also happens. Careful reading of the pages and examples can give you the difference.

sure not necessarily mistakes because the nature of tropes is wibbly wabbly and not scientific but cultural

Anyway, moving back to the main point…

I’m not arguing against a pure martial hand-to-hand class: it’s a cool class. Most of the 3.5 Monk’s abilities can be explained in martial terms, with some changes on mechanics, I grant you. I can also see someone learning the language of animals; D&D just doesn’t work that way, since those abilities are class-based or spell-based magical abilities. Nevertheless, it should: it is not such a powerful ability to be usable only once in a day or something like that. Most animals aren’t that bright, anyway.

I house ruled animal languages in fairly early... in fact I was doing it 1e era, and in other games LOL yes Tolkein

I just always wondered why my Monk called Sun Wukong couldn’t launch a Kame-Hame-Ha, even with a different name.

Its certainly not an ability of the 1e/2e monk or apparently the 3e monk as I said I think the original monk was a western more subtle interpretation of the eastern martial artist which is much more Wuxia.

Now one might say this has been a failing of D&D monks they were too much badass normal and not enough Charles Atlas ... AHEM ;P

Monks in RPGs tend to have a very strong mystical/supernatural theme with them.
Yeah, there are some oddities in 4e’s martial powers, but the vast majority of them were just badass stuff. I think Martial healing itself is strange and not to my taste (and I’m a 4e fan); they will work slightly different differently in my game. However, of course, that brings back Lots of HP discussions, so let’s avoid that.
However, when monks are supernatural, they are usually based on Qi, not psionics.

Nods Psionics had a discordent but very cool flavor all the way back but and we can argue that spirit and mind are manifestations of the same ie they are both Will power in extremis (The word DISCIPLINE is a pretty big flavor element of the Martial source) and could be called KI and maybe the difference between psionic and KI is even more just a reflavoring. I would see them fueled by either Wisdom or Charisma or even Constitution.

(The huge hit points of the fighter could be seen as superhuman levels of life force)

That choice had a lot of context to happen, ultimately being a consequence of design space.
So, I guess the real fight here is Ki Monk vs. Pure-Martial Monk. That is a hard choice to make. I’m not against having 50+ classes so splitting them sounds like a good idea.
I do have one question: if monks don’t have Qi stuff, who will? That seems a great dilemma for me; monks are perfect for that.

However, I think this is a tangential point and a discussion not really needed here. Forgive me for such interruption; sometimes I just have to do this just because. I’ll take a time to read this class (and re-read Pathfinder’s Brawler hybrid class), and them reflect more about that.
…

Really, guys, why every monk needs to know kung-fu? Hahahahahahahaha.

Well kung fu might be the wisdom flavored one Karate the strength flavored (Bruce Lee)... and several others I identified what Jackie chan as a cinematic style using constitution LOL. Melee training strikes again.

The Brawling fighter in 4e could almost be a Jujitsu user... if he didnt have the dependence on weapons and armor though I suppose with some heavy feat investment and monk multi classing it might work. But those costs are replacing things.

Benn, level 1
Human, Fighter
Build: Brawling Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Background: Explorer/Guide (Explorer/Guide Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9.


AC: 16 Fort: 19 Reflex: 14 Will: 12
HP: 25 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Nature +8, Athletics +9, Endurance +5, Heal +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering +1, History, Insight +1, Intimidate -1, Perception +1, Religion, Stealth +3, Streetwise -1, Thievery +3

FEATS
Human: Master of the Fist
Level 1: Unarmored Agility

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Knockdown Assault
Fighter at-will 1: Grappling Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Bash and Pinion
Fighter daily 1: Seize and Stab

ITEMS
Monk Unarmed Strike

 

[Garthanos]

However, I think this is a tangential point and a discussion not really needed here. Forgive me for such interruption; sometimes I just have to do this just because.

Entirely not an interruption, I like sparking thinking and ideas 4e is my favorite of all editions and elements of it really seem to have been short changed instead of developed.

If we want content more of the games design paradigm explored it isnt currently going to come out of WOTC

 

[Garthanos]

AC: 16 Fort: 19 Reflex: 14 Will: 12

Ick the Will turns out really bad on this JuJitsu fighter just doesnt ring true to archetype.

Although a fighter being a defender is kind of Caine like

 

[Garthanos]

Speaking of talking to animals

 

[Igwilly]

Yes I looked it up because I remembered the abilities being only vaguely supernatural and easily just extremes of martial prowess acupressure and a couple wierd eye blinkers like talking to plants.
When Batman is hanging out with Superman he is arguably a different character (something to think about) he isn't solidly one or the other and I argue neither should these characters be. Because they do hang out with them explicit supernaturals.
sure not necessarily mistakes because the nature of tropes is wibbly wabbly and not scientific but cultural

Well, yeah; tropes are not set in stone like laws, so there’s potential for discussion. I just like to differentiate stuff and put into determined territories. I think I’m not the only one.

I house ruled animal languages in fairly early... in fact I was doing it 1e era, and in other games LOL yes Tolkein

My friend is doing this too in our group. It’s working fine up to now.

Its certainly not an ability of the 1e/2e monk or apparently the 3e monk as I said I think the original monk was a western more subtle interpretation of the eastern martial artist which is much more Wuxia.
Now one might say this has been a failing of D&D monks they were too much badass normal and not enough Charles Atlas ... AHEM ;P

That’s my point: with the monk being all Qi in recent editions, I wonder why such a move didn’t appear at some point.
A character who can break boulders with his strength, or catch bullets, or something like that, seems a lot of fun, however.

Nods Psionics had a discordent but very cool flavor all the way back but and we can argue that spirit and mind are manifestations of the same ie they are both Will power in extremis (The word DISCIPLINE is a pretty big flavor element of the Martial source) and could be called KI and maybe the difference between psionic and KI is even more just a reflavoring. I would see them fueled by either Wisdom or Charisma or even Constitution.
(The huge hit points of the fighter could be seen as superhuman levels of life force)
Well kung fu might be the wisdom flavored one Karate the strength flavored (Bruce Lee)... and several others I identified what Jackie chan as a cinematic style using constitution LOL. Melee training strikes again.
The Brawling fighter in 4e could almost be a Jujitsu user... if he didnt have the dependence on weapons and armor though I suppose with some heavy feat investment and monk multi classing it might work. But those costs are replacing things.

Psionics and Qi being related (or even worse, equal) is a possibility I’m thinking about it, now. They certainly are similar except on how one develops this talent. While reading Pathfinder’s Occult Adventures, I thought that things like ki and chakra should be there with the occult classes, not relegated to a couple of pages or so from one class. Psionic Power reimagined Ki as a special kind of psionic energy and that ended up being cool. This is sparkling me ideas.

Anyway, good luck on your new class. Creating a new class for 4e always looked like a lot of work, and that stopped me from doing it myself. However, if you really want to, go ahead: as you said, WotC won’t do that now

 

[Garthanos]

I looked at the monk at level 1 unless you want prince Zuko from Avatar doing the fire bending it could be all martial

Sent from my XT1585 using EN World mobile app

 

[Tony Vargas]

Will the real martial artist please stand up...

...as a minor action!

 

[Garthanos]

...as a minor action!

Well dude isnt the monk one of those that people on the Martial Controller Underground were arguing as controller potential archetypes

 

[Garthanos]

Psionics and Qi being related (or even worse, equal) is a possibility I’m thinking about it, now.

It was basically the thought I was expressing, and I think if the monk was brought out after essentials we could have seen a mixed martial and psionic class, my first customization may involve going through and making it that way in the character builder LOL.

The JuJitsu fighter i was building is effectively a Samurai... btw