Will you make transsexual Elves canon in your games ?

[TheCosmicKid]

It isn’t outside the realm of possibility or probability that some small subset of elves might as closely resemble their deity in this regard as they do in others.

I believe the PHB suggests the possibility in almost exactly those terms.

 

[Yaarel]

Elves have almost universally been historically portrayed as physically effeminate to the point that in some depictions it is difficult to tell a male elf from a female elf.

Wait. In Norse texts, the alfar are masculine.

The medieval England reinvented the elves as feminine, under the influence of pan-European literature about Greek nymphs and French faie.

Even in Scotland folkbelief the elves remain humansize and masculine.

 

[Sunseeker]

Wait. In Norse texts, the alfar are masculine.

The medieval British reinvented the elves as feminine, under the influence of pan-European literature about Greek nymphs.

I meant, "within the context of D&D".

Depictions of elves in real mythology (heh, that's a funny phrase) are far more diverse than D&D presents it.

 

[i_dont_meta]

Sorry I haven't read all 200+ posts, so I can't be sure my sentiments haven't already been echoed, but isn't one of the reasons why Elves adventure and such is due to their desire to increase the "value" (so to speak) of their Trance?? By going out and seeing the world they stregthen their souls for the next incarnations. So as an extrapolation, couldn't we say that by changing your sex overnight you're also just increasing the depth and breadth of your Trance?...I'm completely behind this Elven model: it's not Tolkien OR Norse!

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I'll see your "being able to change sex doesn't make them transgender" and raise you "nor does it stop them from being transgender."

Sure, but the ability is less likely to come up in play if they're trans, though, isn't it? They're likely to settle on the form they're comfortable with and stick with it, just like the cis elves with the blessing.

The idea that being transgender means your gender "doesn't match" the sex you were "born with" is a very cisnormative way of framing it. Sex and gender are different spectra (just as sexuality is different from either), so no gender inherently "matches" or "doesn't match" any given set of sex characteristics. The associations between them are culturally constructed, so a better way of framing it would be to say that being transgender is about identifying with a gender that is different from the one you were assigned at birth.

Heh. Ask a sociologist what gender is, and they'll say it's cultural. Ask a neurologist what gender is, and they'll say it's neurological. Ask a psychologist what gender is, and they'll say it's psychological. Ask an endocrinologist what gender is, and they'll say it's hormonal. Ask a linguist... okay, they'll think you're talking about something else entirely. My point is, this kind of reductive analysis has never seemed satisfying. The human brain is a big giant crazy ball of interconnectedness. Nothing is independent.

In real life human culture, we are typically assigned genders based on sex characteristics, but in a culture where some members are born with the ability to change sex characteristics simply by meditating for a few hours, perhaps there would be different criteria. They may have more and/or different culturally-defined genders than humans have, or they may not have a concept of gender at all. And in any of those cases, an elf with or without Corellon's blessing may or may not identify with the gender they were assigned by their parents or the lack thereof.

This raises all sorts of questions about what gender actually is. I cracked about the linguist earlier, but grammatical gender (and grammar is where the term "gender" originally comes from) really does take forms that have nothing to do with masculinity/femininity. A language might, for example, divide its nouns between living things, artifacts, and natural objects. But if a human(oid) society did something similar with its members -- say, rich vs poor, or rural vs urban -- it would be a stretch to me to call that a "gender system". The first term to spring to mind would be "class system" or "caste system". Are those really the same thing as gender? Interesting to think about.

 

[Imaculata]

I think a lot of these difficult questions could be prevented if you just eliminate elves from your game entirely.

 

[Lylandra]

I'll see your "being able to change sex doesn't make them transgender" and raise you "nor does it stop them from being transgender."

The idea that being transgender means your gender "doesn't match" the sex you were "born with" is a very cisnormative way of framing it. Sex and gender are different spectra (just as sexuality is different from either), so no gender inherently "matches" or "doesn't match" any given set of sex characteristics. The associations between them are culturally constructed, so a better way of framing it would be to say that being transgender is about identifying with a gender that is different from the one you were assigned at birth.

In real life human culture, we are typically assigned genders based on sex characteristics, but in a culture where some members are born with the ability to change sex characteristics simply by meditating for a few hours, perhaps there would be different criteria. They may have more and/or different culturally-defined genders than humans have, or they may not have a concept of gender at all. And in any of those cases, an elf with or without Corellon's blessing may or may not identify with the gender they were assigned by their parents or the lack thereof.

I know that. But I wanted to avoid a big wall of text and tried to focus on the fact that transsexual isn't the right word and using transgender for all of them isn't right as well.

Good point about the possibility of being trans even if they are blessed by Corellon, especially if their parents are not. I'd thought it was a herediary thing, but that isn't the case.

 

[Charlaquin]

Sure, but the ability is less likely to come up in play if they're trans, though, isn't it? They're likely to settle on the form they're comfortable with and stick with it, just like the cis elves with the blessing.

Assuming they’re binary, sure, but there’s a lot more to the gender spectrum than cis man, cis woman, trans man, and trans woman. A genderfluid person is still trans. A bigender person is trans, even when they are in a gender state that coincides with their assigned gender.

Heh. Ask a sociologist what gender is, and they'll say it's cultural. Ask a neurologist what gender is, and they'll say it's neurological. Ask a psychologist what gender is, and they'll say it's psychological. Ask an endocrinologist what gender is, and they'll say it's hormonal. Ask a linguist... okay, they'll think you're talking about something else entirely. My point is, this kind of reductive analysis has never seemed satisfying. The human brain is a big giant crazy ball of interconnectedness. Nothing is independent.

But ask a trans person what gender is and they’ll say it’s a part of their identity. There is no doubt that neurology, psychology, hormones, culture, and a whole lot of other factors go into forming a person’s identity. But ultimately, when a person’s identity as it relates to gender does not match the one they were assigned at birth, that person is transgender.

This raises all sorts of questions about what gender actually is. I cracked about the linguist earlier, but grammatical gender (and grammar is where the term "gender" originally comes from) really does take forms that have nothing to do with masculinity/femininity. A language might, for example, divide its nouns between living things, artifacts, and natural objects. But if a human(oid) society did something similar with its members -- say, rich vs poor, or rural vs urban -- it would be a stretch to me to call that a "gender system". The first term to spring to mind would be "class system" or "caste system". Are those really the same thing as gender? Interesting to think about.

It is definitely interesting to think about. To draw a parallel to another fictional universe for a moment, one of the things I loved in Destiny’s lore (I know, I know...) was the way the Krill (a species that eventually became the enemies known as the Hive) treated gender. Their species had a 10-year life cycle, and were capable of multiple different metamorphoses after 5 years, with the specific metamorphosis depending on certain external factors like if they ate Mother Jelly (and Mothers could actually live longer than 10 years). All Krill larvae are referred to with “she/her” pronouns, as were Mothers, but Knights and Kings were referred to by “he/him.” The Lore went into the backstory of one of the series major villains, who started out as a Krill larva , and is referred to as “she” in the Lore until the point in her backstory where she takes on the King morph, from which point on he is referred to as “he.” Now, I would absolutely consider that a gender system, and it does contain an element of social class (though admittedly not economic class, and it also contains a bilological element.) I would say that if Aurash (this character’s original name) had identified as the Krill’s equivalent of male, or Auryx (the villain’s adult name, chosen after taking on the King morph) had identified as their equivalent of female, I would consider them trans. Interestingly, later on Auryx acquires a McGuffin that gives him crazy space magic and he changes his name to Oryx, marking it as a transformation metaphorically equivalent to his earlier physical metamorphosis from larva to King. If he had at that point started using she/her pronouns, I would have considered him trans as well. Shame Bungie didn’t take advantage of the opportunity. Anyway, my point is, I would consider trans-ness a matter of having an identity that lies outside of what one’s society dictates their gender “should be,” by whatever definition that society has for gender.

At any rate, fascinating stuff. Thank you for an engaging and respectful discussion!

 

[Charlaquin]

I know that. But I wanted to avoid a big wall of text and tried to focus on the fact that transsexual isn't the right word and using transgender for all of them isn't right as well.

Good point about the possibility of being trans even if they are blessed by Corellon, especially if their parents are not. I'd thought it was a herediary thing, but that isn't the case.

For sure. I meant more to add on to your post rather than to try to refute or one-up it. Maybe my use of poker terms was poorly thought out, sorry if I came off as combative.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

God's can do thing like that. Mortals not so much (shape hangers being an exception).

Did not like the 3E art either.

Except in this case, as I understand it, the gendershifting is literally a blessing from the god, not an innate ability.