(Win pdf books!) Week 1 complete. Click in first post for link to the week 2 thread.

[demiurge1138]

How about monsters? Everybody loves monsters. It's part of the game. So, if we were to talk about monsters, it should entail how well they've been used in your own games, or your personal envisioning of how some monster culture works or why you think they should be used more (like why dragons love making half-dragons, or why derro don't get enough respect, or your interpretation of centaurs as Mongol-like raiders or whatever). If the poster in question wants to talk about some homebrewed monster that's close to their heart, stats for the beastie would be provided so that other people could use it, too.

And, if this post is worthy of selection, an EN Bestiary would be both appreciated and appropriate.

Demiurge out.

 

[mythusmage]

Topic: Are a paladin's powers and abilities benefits he gains for being a paladin, or tools gained that he may better fulfill his obligations as a paladin?

I say the latter. A paladin's abilities are bestowed by his deity that the paladin may better fulfill his obligations to others. They aid the paladin in serving others, in healing, protecting, succouring them. They are not there for the paladin's benefit, they are there for the benefit of others.

Thus when a paladin uses his powers mainly to his own benefit he is violating the spirit and the letter of the agreement he entered into with his god. He is being, in a word, selfish. That is grounds for revocation of his status as a paladin.

A paladin's abilities can also serve as punishment, serving as a reminder of what the paladin did wrong. Reminding the paladin he has those abilities because more is expected of him than is expected of others. That he has obligations and responsibility, and that his powers are to be used to aid him fulfill those obligations and responsibilities.

A paladin murders another in a fit of rage. If you see his abilities as some sort of reward for being a paladin, then by all means strip him of them. But if they be tools by which he can better perform his duties as a paladin, then he keeps them be he determined to atone for what he has done. With this proviso; that every time he uses a power or ability said use serves as a reminder of what he did, and of those extraordinary charges he assumed when he agreed to become a paladin.

Related: Are a blackguard's abilities reward or punishment?

 

[Alzrius]

This is a topic I've been harping on quite a bit for the last few days, but I can't really get it out of my head.

Mainstream d20 (that is, Fantasy/Modern d20, and not BESM d20, M&M 2E, etc.) is probably one of the most flexible game engines I've ever seen. Given the level of complexity involved, it's incredible how it can handle such a wide range of genres and scenarios.

However, the d20 system's major failing point is when it tries to incorporate a high degree of power. "Epic" levels invariably fail at being truly epic, in regards to accomplishing truly cosmic feats that you see in various comics, anime, novels, etc.

Epic levels really only offer (monsters notwithstanding) epic feats, epic skill uses, and epic spells and magic items. Of those four things, only epic spells truly push the envelope in terms of power. A wizard with 200 levels isn't going to be able to disintegrate a continent. A fighter won't ever find a magic weapon that does enough damage to destroy a planet.

Is this a major problem? No. Most gamers that I've seen don't really seem to want to play with that level of ability. But that doesn't change the fact that, when you take the system past the "normal" power level, it increasingly fails to deliver the necessary breadth of power. Even given the plethora of resources available, I'll never be able to make a d20 character design of SSJ4 Goku (Upper_Krust's not-yet-available Immortal's Handbook notwithstanding...I hope). While I could use another gaming system for that (such as the Fuzion system in R. Talsorian Games's DBZ RPG), I don't want to use another system, I want to use the d20 system, since it's the system with the most compatible products.

With extremely few exceptions, no one particularly seems to be focusing on this issue. This probably focuses on the (aforementioned) point that cosmic d20 gaming doesn't seem to appeal to too many people. But however small it may be, the desire for it is still there, and it remains a void that the system has yet to properly fill.

I know it isn't out yet, but I'd really like a copy of The Fantastic Science when it comes out if this post is the Chosen One.

 

[Kelleris]

Mainstream d20 (that is, Fantasy/Modern d20, and not BESM d20, M&M 2E, etc.) is probably one of the most flexible game engines I've ever seen. Given the level of complexity involved, it's incredible how it can handle such a wide range of genres and scenarios.

However, the d20 system's major failing point is when it tries to incorporate a high degree of power. "Epic" levels invariably fail at being truly epic, in regards to accomplishing truly cosmic feats that you see in various comics, anime, novels, etc.

You know, this irks me on a conceptual level too. I don't ever actually play that high, but it's fun to think about. I might even try my hand at something if I were to drop off the face of the earth for a year or so.

I think I would try to handle it with a system of enormously large penalties that increase the scale of the action in question, to kill two birds with one stone - to solve the problem you note and to make sure the trusty ol' d20 stays relevant at very high levels. Plus, it's always annoyed me that epic rules never seem to respect the exponential nature of bonus increases - each point of bonus represents a lot more "oomph" than the previous point, as evidenced by the increasing difficulty of gaining levels and the bonus-squared price structure of magic items. The epic rules should reflect that.

So there would be a -30 penalty (or whatever) to have a sword-slash that affects everything in a 60-foot line, with an additional 5 feet per -1 penalty you take on your attack roll. Assuming the character can also blow apart a 5-foot cube of earth or stone with that (easy at that level), you can have fighters doing things like making a new pass in the Pyrenees when they miss.

Ditto for spells (-5 caster level to double a spell's radius/number of targets) and skills (something like Iron Heroes' stunts) and the like. I'm not sure if you would need a feat or something similar to access a particular penalty-based variable-power ability or not, though...

Actually, come to think of it, the best way to handle a system like this might be to gut the current epic rules (on the assumption that everyone has all their basic skills at level 20) and make a small set of epic classes whose primary benefit is some kind of vastly expanded action-points system with which epic characters offset the enormous penalties to various actions they rehularly accept. Just three generic classes (offensive, skill, and magic-based), and piles of action points, increasingly large bonuses from those points, and increased rates of point regeneration. No new capabilities, just dramatic, hero-point increases in scale.

The best part would be how freeform it could be with the right guidelines. DM - "Okay, you want to stun the World Flayer by dropkicking it through that mountain peak so the wizard can act out of turn to telekinese it into the sun?" Player - "Ayup." DM - "Okay, that's an attack roll at -73 for you, and make sure you do enough damage to clear the 1500 feet to the peak. The wizard takes a -10 on his caster level for acting out of turn and a further -30 for the thousand-fold range increase in the telekinesis spell. Get rolling!"

That would be cool. Crazy-hard would be hard to balance right, though! Ah well, I can dream.

EDIT - You, to make it really cinematic, don't require them to take penalties before doing whatever-it-is - see what the character's margin of success is and then let them take penalties to increase scale and make the result suitably impressive. That would make sure each point on the d20 mattered again... Hard to do with spells, though, since caster level isn't a "roll a d20 and add" sort of thing, and so a margin of success would be hard to come by. Maybe use saving throw DCs?

I know it isn't out yet, but I'd really like a copy of The Fantastic Science when it comes out if this post is the Chosen One.

Hey, thanks! I was wondering if my little spiel(s) in the press release thread had piqued your interest.

 

[Alzrius]

You know, this irks me on a conceptual level too. I don't ever actually play that high, but it's fun to think about. I might even try my hand at something if I were to drop off the face of the earth for a year or so.

I feel the same way. The only serious attempt I've seen to try and fix this without revising the entire d20 system (the way M&M did) is in U_K's Immortal's Handbook (I have the Bestiary vol. 1 unofficial release too), but, well...that's a ways off.

I think I would try to handle it with a system of enormously large penalties that increase the scale of the action in question, to kill two birds with one stone - to solve the problem you note and to make sure the trusty ol' d20 stays relevant at very high levels.

Interesting idea, as PCs tend to start bonus-whoring long before the epic levels. Of course, there'd need to be some limit built in, otherwise PCs start tacking on ridiculously-high penalties in attempts to do things that become game-breaking, predicated on the chance that they'd eventually succeed on the die roll.

Plus, it's always annoyed me that epic rules never seem to respect the exponential nature of bonus increases - each point of bonus represents a lot more "oomph" than the previous point, as evidenced by the increasing difficulty of gaining levels and the bonus-squared price structure of magic items. The epic rules should reflect that.

Any idea how? That seems pretty hard, as most bonuses (in my experience) are built up as a series of non-epic bonuses being stacked at the same time, which might make it somewhat hard to adjudicate any sort of penalty to stacking bonuses higher.

So there would be a -30 penalty (or whatever) to have a sword-slash that affects everything in a 60-foot line, with an additional 5 feet per -1 penalty you take on your attack roll. Assuming the character can also blow apart a 5-foot cube of earth or stone with that (easy at that level), you can have fighters doing things like making a new pass in the Pyrenees when they miss.

Which is a great idea, until it becomes all the players do. Of course, the trick then is giving them no good reason to do it (and the balancing act continues!).

Ditto for spells (-5 caster level to double a spell's radius/number of targets) and skills (something like Iron Heroes' stunts) and the like. I'm not sure if you would need a feat or something similar to access a particular penalty-based variable-power ability or not, though...

The more I look at it, the more I realize that the Iron Heroes idea begins to really apply at cosmic levels. How crippling would it be to a fighter who had his uber-epic magic items disjoined, or sundered, or was disarmed, etc.? That's something spellcasters don't have to deal with, largely, and creates something of a disparity (not to mention that it gets annoying to have a character defined by his items). Things like weapons of legacy and item familiars helps somewhat, but doesn't quite solve the problem.

I was thinking about that the other day as I was watching FFVII: Advent Children again. I won't mention any spoilers, suffice it to say that during the incredible action sequences of the last battle, you realize that there were no spells or magic items coming into play there...it's the characters own natural powers (which are somehow more than natural).

Actually, come to think of it, the best way to handle a system like this might be to gut the current epic rules (on the assumption that everyone has all their basic skills at level 20) and make a small set of epic classes whose primary benefit is some kind of vastly expanded action-points system with which epic characters offset the enormous penalties to various actions they rehularly accept. Just three generic classes (offensive, skill, and magic-based), and piles of action points, increasingly large bonuses from those points, and increased rates of point regeneration. No new capabilities, just dramatic, hero-point increases in scale.

Ironically enough, I've been kicking around an idea in my head for a product that did something like that. Not anything specifically epic, but an overhaul/expansion to the action point system to allow for FFVII:AC-like combat for characters. Nothing's written (and probably won't be) but it's an idea I'd love to expand on.

Hey, thanks! I was wondering if my little spiel(s) in the press release thread had piqued your interest.

They did, until the topic of Morningstar came up, since I have no idea what that is.

 

[Darkness]

By the way, if someone here is missing a post, it's probably because humor doesn't excuse inappropriate content.

 

[Kelleris]

Interesting idea, as PCs tend to start bonus-whoring long before the epic levels. Of course, there'd need to be some limit built in, otherwise PCs start tacking on ridiculously-high penalties in attempts to do things that become game-breaking, predicated on the chance that they'd eventually succeed on the die roll.

Yes, though that's mainly a problem with spellcasters, I think. Although knocking-down-mountains attack rolls could be similarly abused.

Any idea how? That seems pretty hard, as most bonuses (in my experience) are built up as a series of non-epic bonuses being stacked at the same time, which might make it somewhat hard to adjudicate any sort of penalty to stacking bonuses higher.

Unfortunately, not really. It's something I see, but then you're right that the game actually encourages the use of spread-out bonus types. It gets to be that you can either get +1 AC by gaining 19000 XP to get your 20th level of Monk or by spending 1,000 gold on a pair of bracers of armor +1. So the system really pulls you both ways, toward treating each consecutive point of bonus as more significant than the last, and as treating consecutive points as just teensy increases. I'm not sure how to resolve the conceptual problem.

Which is a great idea, until it becomes all the players do. Of course, the trick then is giving them no good reason to do it (and the balancing act continues!).

The more I think about it (hey, I'm up to an hour and a half! ), the more I'm thinking action points are the way to go. Keep ACs and attack bonuses and such roughly the same as they are at 20th level, and essentially force players to blow through their epic action points to counteract these penalties. Maybe have a slow increase, so the old 60-foot slash is second nature to an 80th-level fighter, but cutting apart the fabric of reality requires dipping into the action point pool. That solves both the "keep trying till you make it" and the "why not do it all the time" problems, I think.

The more I look at it, the more I realize that the Iron Heroes idea begins to really apply at cosmic levels. How crippling would it be to a fighter who had his uber-epic magic items disjoined, or sundered, or was disarmed, etc.? That's something spellcasters don't have to deal with, largely, and creates something of a disparity (not to mention that it gets annoying to have a character defined by his items). Things like weapons of legacy and item familiars helps somewhat, but doesn't quite solve the problem.

Again, I think the solution is to cap a lot of things at 20th level, and only increase them slowly thereafter. Magic items would define the baseline, but it's the pool of action points and the quality, quantity, and regeneration rate of such that defines your real upper limits. A fighter who lost his magic weapon would be at a disadvantage, then, but at least in the short term could overcome that disadvantage just by increasing his rate of point consumption.

Honestly, though, you just need a stipulation that fighters can somehow recover their most important articles of gear when necessary, at some pretty reasonable (read: small) cost.

I was thinking about that the other day as I was watching FFVII: Advent Children again. I won't mention any spoilers, suffice it to say that during the incredible action sequences of the last battle, you realize that there were no spells or magic items coming into play there...it's the characters own natural powers (which are somehow more than natural).

Well, I haven't seen Advent Children, but I would argue from my time playing FF games that magic items are certainly involved, at least in terms of signature weapons. But yeah, you want something that reflects crazy off-the-wall stuff for those climactic battles. I envision an epic campaign as mostly involving climactic, set-piece battles, actually. You'd probably have extensive stretches where the characters function as more-or-less normal very-high-level D&D characters, with moments designed to really force them to tap into something extra to keep up. Perhaps epic in this sense would be some unsustainable level of supra-human ability? Then you could encourage insane epic play without it getting so out of hand it becomes ridiculous - you could even justify somewhat limiting the impact of these people who can, in theory, disintegrate a city or knock a moon out of orbit with a single arrow.

Ironically enough, I've been kicking around an idea in my head for a product that did something like that. Not anything specifically epic, but an overhaul/expansion to the action point system to allow for FFVII:AC-like combat for characters. Nothing's written (and probably won't be) but it's an idea I'd love to expand on.

Needless to say, I'd like to see this if it ever comes to fruition.

They did, until the topic of Morningstar came up, since I have no idea what that is.

Heh. Sorry about that. DMH just happened to ask a particularly meaty question. Morningstar is Goodman Games' featured campaign setting, apparently. You can find a pretty good rundown here.

 

[Estlor]

Personally, if the system starts to break down around Epic levels, it comes from a two part problem - inherent assuptions and hasty afterthoughts.

One of the driving forces behind 3.0 from the get go was the idea of balance. Everything has to be balanced with everything else so nothing is more ideal than anything else. Now don't get me wrong, I believe balance is a good thing. It's what keeps the game from spiraling out of control through around the first 10-15 levels of play. But it seems like the understood benchmark of class balance was the Wizard. That's where problems creep into the system.

From OD&D through 2nd Edition, there was an assumption about playing a wizard. By choosing this class, you were deferring power until later levels. For the first 10 levels, you're hiding behind the party fighter after you've blown your wad in the first round of the encounter. And boy is that fighter carving some meat, especially when they get into multiple attacks and can pretty much hit every time. But about the time that happens, you're stopping time and hurling meteors, generally blowing things to a crisp before the fighter can even close to engage them.

Now, along comes 3rd Edition with the philosophy everything must be balanced. So the wizard, who starts out weak and becomes godly needs to start as a match for the fighter. But, likewise, the fighter needs to end a match for the wizard. Obviously the fighter's godly power (and any power with mundane abilities - fighters, rangers, rogues, etc) can't be something inherent to the class. Hence, the quick fix of slapping on magic items. Of course, because they're trying to keep things balanced, they have to assign wealth levels to PCs and wealth values for magic items. And while the assumption is wizards will carry around more single use items - scrolls and potions - with a few wants tucked in while fighters, rogues, and the like will have more wondrous items, it can result in a snowball effect that, by the time you hit 20th level, you simply HAVE to leave for the outer planes to keep challenging your PCs.

Of course, I can't blame all of the problems on the obsessive need to balance the classes against each other. If you look at the historical growth of the D&D ruleset, this is a legacy issue that they've been dealing with incrementally over time.

In the beginning, there was Basic D&D and Expert D&D. And that was it. And you got maybe, what, ten levels before you retired and started over. Then along came AD&D and the revised edition of OD&D that pushed the game to levels 20 and 36 respectively. But you'll notice in both cases things seem to go wonky after the old OD&D level cap. In AD&D, racial levels caps kick in and human classes spiral out of control to the point where the game just stops being fun. In D&D, certain class aspects freeze and others continue to progress at different rates, causing a dramatic shift to the way the rules work. An attempt was made to stretch out the old Expert levels over Expert, Companion, and Master, leaving you with some strange, powerful, and oddly broken characters by the time 36th level came calling.

Another sign of this was D&D Immortal rules. The original, gold box rules were utterly confusing, changed the game in a way to make it hardly resemble the original, and could hardly be used in play. The Wrath of the Immortals revision made them highly playable, but did so by completely changing the ruleset to run more in line with D&D, piggybacking off of something that worked better in the first place.

Honestly, I don't think there's a way to fix Epic play in 3.x D&D without making some kind of definite change to the exponential increase in power from level 1 through 20. It begs a couple of questions, though:

1. Should every class be balanced? Should I expect my wizard to perform as well as my friend's fighter? Or should it be understood that my wizard will underperform for a while and "make up" for it later? On the other hand, is it acceptable for class balance to be achieved by separate XP tables? Should we consider a return to "Name Level" concepts where hit point and attack progression slowed?

2. Can Epic level gaming be achieved without a major adjustment to the system? Is successful Epic play even necessary?

An aside: I've noticed each time they revise D&D, they get closer to the goal. Originally it broke down after 10th level. Now you can get much closer to 15th before things go haywire. Should we expect 4e to take us all the way to 20 without problems?

(And I'm still fishing for Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth, but this post was more about throwing up some thoughts and questions I have about the system than winning a PDF.)

 

[Tinner]

Personally, I don't think that people's complaints with Epic levels stem so much from the (admitedly weak) mechanics in the ELH, as much as from the utter lack of anything really "epic" to do.
When I think of Epic adventure, I envision quests to save entire planes of existance, world-spanning dramas where every decision the players make has an immediate and dramatic affect on the entire universe.

The problem is that the ELH doesn't give us that. It just gives us more ways to kill stuff and take its treasure.

Granted, that "stuff" is bigger and harder to kill, and yes, the treasure is bigger and better too.
But when you boil it all down, it's still just Orc & Pie on a much larger scale.
Orc & Pie isn't epic in any sense of the word, no matter how big the orc, or how immense the pie.

Now, I've used the ELH rules, and they have served perfectly well for continuing beyond level 20. But our Epic games weren't Epic because of anything in the ELH. They were epic because the players took ownership of their characters, made them come alive, and got involved in the bigger picture.

Conan wasn't epic because he killed bigger critters with a better sword. He was epic because he dared violate the sacred temples of dark gods, and walk forbidden paths.
He was epic because of his personality and deeds, not because of his skills and powers.

Sadly, there's not really any sure-fire way to add that kind of epic to a game. That has to come from the players working with the GM to create a game that is more than just a bigger dungeon with more loot. It takes characters that are more than just a +5 vorpal sword, with the armor of the holy dingus.

Epic is about scope, not scale.
Bigger, better, faster, more is not epic.

If I were to design a revised ELH, I'd probably leave the mechanics of epic levels exactly as they are.
But I'd be sure to add some of the following to the book too:

Building a Nation - Now that you've tread the world beneath your jeweled sandals, it's time to wear that heavy iron crown. Let's have some rules for running a country. Warfare on a large scale, courtly intrigue, and economics.

Spearheading a Faith - You are the mightiest servant of your divine patron on this plane. Clearly you are the perfect figurehead for your church. What does that entail? What epic worship services will you handle? Will you become an avatar? Can a mere mortal truly channel that much divinity and remain unchanged?

Healing Mother Earth - As an epic character attuned to the natural world, what does your druid or ranger now focus on? It's not enough to just slay dangerous creatures that threaten the balance, there are other forces out there causing problems. You want epic druid/ranger/nature challenges? Check out Princess Mononoke. Or even Naussica.

The Big Job - You're the best thief in 100 generations. You've stolen the eye from deadly sacred idols, and risen through the ranks to lead a thieves guild. Now what? What's the next big score? How do you lead a thieves guild? Can you expand your criminal empire? When is enough money enough? Can a rogue ever really retire?

Epic Magic - Being the greatest archmage of all time is about more than creating a "Hellball" spell that does more damage. Real power comes to the spellcaster who manages to "bottle fame, brew glory, and even put a stopper in death."

Something like that is a lot more like my idea of epic.

(Not that it would be remotely fair to get two in a row, but I'd love a copy of Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth.)

 

[Dark Psion]

One topic that has never been fully explored are the three Rs of gaming; Raised, Resurrected and Reincarnated. And I would add an additional one, Redeemed.

Raised: What can go wrong and what can go right? What if you save someone from Hell like in Hellraiser? What if you save someone from Heaven like in Buffy TVS?
How do you limit PCs and especially NPCs from being raised? Can something as simple as an assassin cutting off a finger of the corpse stop a Raise Dead?
Requiring a cleric casting the spell be of the same deity the PC followed is one way, but what if you could only be raised by a cleric whose domains covered how your PC died?
Drowned in the Ocean, you need Poseidon, but in war, then a cleric of Ares is needed.

Resurrected: This is more powerful, so that makes it rarer, but again what can go wrong and what can go right? Only a single part of the body is needed, but what happens to the rest of the body if successful? What if the spell is cast on multiple parts? I remember someone posting once about changing this spell into a Summoning spell that summons an arbiter of Death, whom you must bribe, duel or gamble to gain the soul of the departed.

Reincarnated: Exactly how does it work? Are you reborn in your body like Dr Who or do you snatch someone else body, alive or recently dead? Are their ways to influence your new form or tap into your previous incarnations? And then there is the Inuyasha question of what happens when you try to resurrect someone who has already been reincarnated? One short story I read once put Reincarnation under the domain of the Lord of Dreams, a very interesting concept.

Redeemed: There are many things in the game that can transform your PC; Lycanthropy, Undeath, or even becoming an Outsider. All of these are handled by gaining a Template and so being Redeemed is undoing a template and regaining your original form. Since Templates are still new, undoing them is an unexplored concept.

And there are other ways of cheating death; Psionic Mind Swap, Magic Jar into a magic item and simple CPR, by way of a Heal check.



As to the pdf, keep the EnCritters comming