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Winterhaven Capsule Hotels

thalmin said:
1. The village withdrew inside the walls, the walls were not built to contain the village.
2. Hostile activity in the area has only recently changed (it's in the module.)
3. Hostile activity doesn't have to mean attempted genocide. A thief doesn't usually want to destroy the store/victim, just take some stuff.
Huh? I thought the only option was to kill people and then take their stuff? Killing is optional?

;)
4. It isn't easy to move a whole village, especially if you must travel through the wilderness (it's safer in here than out there. Even if I live outside the walls, I can run inside if there is real trouble.)

So, are you saying the explanation for "inconsistencies" to what people would expect are in the module? Or can they just be easily made up extrapolated? Do you think it would help to read the actual module with an open mind instead of with the want to find nits to pick?
 

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vagabundo

Adventurer
Celebrim said:
All of this sounds reasonable except that part about pikes, shortbows, and swords. Those are all high skill weapons requiring considerable training. More likely given average D&D assumed technology, you'd be looking at local polearm of choice, crossbows, and axes. Swords in fact were considered the exclusive province and a distinguishing mark of nobility and in most localities were subject to a special tax or else down right illegal for non-nobility to carry..

I just picked those out of my hat to be honest. You weapon choices sound better for a rural villager. Although I suspect Bows might be easier to fashion than crossbows and it is not that hard to learn archery. I imagine militia training to be fairly rigorous after a hundred years of POL only the most readied communities would survive the chaotic Orc Battleragers. :D.

On your other point I suppose I have grown up in surrounding that echo a past age (ireland), even though I was raised in Dublin, it is an old City, there are parts of the Old Dublin Wall close to where I went to school (around 600+ years old? have to check that). Outside of Dublin, Ireland is divided up into a patchwork of fields: linky

I've only really gotten interested in how people lived in the last few years, since I have started my own vegetable patch and seen what can grow in such a small area.

Around 2-3 hundred years ago in Ireland whole families lived off of very very small patches of ground, before the famine there was 6-8 million people on this island. So many died and emigrated that it will be a long time before we reach that number again.
 

Celebrim

Legend
vagabundo said:
I just picked those out of my hat to be honest.

Nothing wrong with that. Your hat just picked something that looked more like 'professional mercenaries'.

Actually, my second thoughts on my choices make me feel axes are a little out of character. The axe stopped being a major military weapon in the early middle ages, though rural villagers would have had a non-military axe around the house as a last resort type weapon. More than likely if we are dealing with a government backed militia, by the time crossbows appear we'd be looking at morning stars as the melee weapon of choice.

Although I suspect Bows might be easier to fashion than crossbows and it is not that hard to learn archery.

Bows are easier to fashion than crossbows, but they are nowhere near as easy to use - I speak from experience here. You can train someone on a crossbow in a few days. Effectively using even a shortbow would require months. It's been said that the only longbowmen and slingers that were any good were those raised on the weapons from birth. So if you wanted to field longbowmen, Wales/England was pretty much your only choice, and if you wanted to field slingers in any quantity you pretty much had to be able to levy troops from Sicily or Judea.

It's always annoyed me how 'sling' is considered a 'simple weapon' in 3E. In fairness, both 'sling' and 'longbow' should be exotic weapons.

But really, I'm being a bit picky when I criticize your choice of shortbow. In a truly rural setting, there is going to be a hunting culture from which to levy archers and its reasonable to claim that applies here. This is actually a resource for your average medieval kingdom, in that the only way to get a large number of quality archers was to levy them from forested areas. This is why England is so powerful in the middle ages, because as the only large medieval kingdom with a large number of freemen, it also has the only large number of citizens who come from a hunting culture (serfs are not allowed to hunt, that right being preserved for the local Lord). So at something like Agincourt, England is leveraging its advantage in free citizenry in much the same way that in the 18th century 'the Colonies' leverage thier advantage in a hunting rifle-centric culture to kick out the English.

I've only really gotten interested in how people lived in the last few years, since I have started my own vegetable patch and seen what can grow in such a small area.

Around 2-3 hundred years ago in Ireland whole families lived off of very very small patches of ground, before the famine there was 6-8 million people on this island. So many died and emigrated that it will be a long time before we reach that number again.

Scot-Irish myself. Pretty much the entire southern United States was settle by Scot-Irish immigrants fleeing either the English or the famine or both. Interestingly, there is a significant parallel between how the English settled Northern United States views Southern culture, and how the English view Irish culture. But that's a discussion for a different blog.
 

vagabundo

Adventurer
Celebrim said:
Nothing wrong with that. Your hat just picked something that looked more like 'professional mercenaries'.

Actually, my second thoughts on my choices make me feel axes are a little out of character. The axe stopped being a major military weapon in the early middle ages, though rural villagers would have had a non-military axe around the house as a last resort type weapon. More than likely if we are dealing with a government backed militia, by the time crossbows appear we'd be looking at morning stars as the melee weapon of choice.

Yeah morning stars would be perfect. I

Bows are easier to fashion than crossbows, but they are nowhere near as easy to use - I speak from experience here. You can train someone on a crossbow in a few days. Effectively using even a shortbow would require months. It's been said that the only longbowmen and slingers that were any good were those raised on the weapons from birth. So if you wanted to field longbowmen, Wales/England was pretty much your only choice, and if you wanted to field slingers in any quantity you pretty much had to be able to levy troops from Sicily or Judea.

It's always annoyed me how 'sling' is considered a 'simple weapon' in 3E. In fairness, both 'sling' and 'longbow' should be exotic weapons.

I think slings are harder to use than bows, for me anyway. Maybe they are easier to master, my flirtation with archery was on stationary targets.


But really, I'm being a bit picky when I criticize your choice of shortbow. In a truly rural setting, there is going to be a hunting culture from which to levy archers and its reasonable to claim that applies here. This is actually a resource for your average medieval kingdom, in that the only way to get a large number of quality archers was to levy them from forested areas. This is why England is so powerful in the middle ages, because as the only large medieval kingdom with a large number of freemen, it also has the only large number of citizens who come from a hunting culture (serfs are not allowed to hunt, that right being preserved for the local Lord). So at something like Agincourt, England is leveraging its advantage in free citizenry in much the same way that in the 18th century 'the Colonies' leverage thier advantage in a hunting rifle-centric culture to kick out the English.

I see POLs as the cream of the crop, the rest of the villages/towns did not have a winning formula for survival. Or they were very unlucky. With the POLs I'm working from some assumtions to try and come up with something I would believe, I need to see a reason for their survival, with Winterhaven I can see the strong walls being a huge advantage, possibly most of the ancestors flocked to Winterhaven (helms deep!) when things got bad and stayed.

So I'm not too concerned with the weapon choice, it is just something to hang things from. I really like the idea of POL and what sort of strategies they use to survive in the random and dangerous world. So leveraging farmers to fight in a militia they would possibly use weapons that are similar to farm implements or they spend a lot of free time being drilled.

Scot-Irish myself. Pretty much the entire southern United States was settle by Scot-Irish immigrants fleeing either the English or the famine or both. Interestingly, there is a significant parallel between how the English settled Northern United States views Southern culture, and how the English view Irish culture. But that's a discussion for a different blog.

:D Probably best not to open a can of worms, we're all friends now. Let bygones be bygones!<gritting teeth> :D
 

katahn

First Post
I'm with the folks who are seeing the 977 figure as meaning people in the town and all surrounding farmers, hunters, and the like. The actual town itself is more a common gathering/trade point, a base of operations for a local militia, where the local government (such as it is) exists, and a place to run for refuge. The typical citizen would only go to town a few times a year unless they lived quite close, and then only for whatever they couldn't grow/make themselves or get in trade from closer neighbors.

I would expect most of the militia would be based out of their homes which would likewise be outside of the town. Individual farmhouses might form mini-clusters outside the town with the land they tend radiating out from the common center. This would make it easier for them to get help in case of bandit or monster attacks while preserving some concept of individual ownership.
 

Harshax

First Post
Korgoth said:
So, what gives with Winterhaven having a population of 977? That's pretty big for a town of 17 buildings.

Even if you put some (hundreds?) thatched roof cottages (for burninating) outisde of town... that's going to be a pretty sprawling Winter-plex for a "point of light".

Having looked at the map, those 17 building are obviously within a fortification of some type. I must conclude, based on my experience with more psuedo-realistic settings, that those buildings are part of the demesne of the ruling authoring and unlikely to be housing for the masses. In other words, the 920 or 950+ people in the town dwell in buildings not detailed on the map.

I agree that a population that size is very much on the scale of a medieval town, which means there are tiny villages all around the lord's manor. This in and of itself is not a problem. It's actually really good for a DM with a little imagination. Surround Winterhaven are 8 - 10 villages comprised of 60 - 100 people each. (6 - 10 builds or so) These are situated around the hub of Winterhaven's domain. The overland map seems to support this conclusion.

Each one of these villages may face its own set of issues, and PC's may be hired to solve problems in any one of a half dozen locations. The village near the dark forest's edge have problems with trolls or orcs. Another village along a river must deal with halfling river pirates. Another with fey stealing children in the night. Another lives near a mysterious barrows from which emit strange light and howling. Another deals with those pesky kobolds.

Winterhaven is a nice little nugget for a DM to wrap a lot of extra one-off's or side quests around, while still maintaining the overall story arc of the module.

For me, I don't have a problem with this aspect of the module.
 

Goobermunch

Explorer
A--A said:
Is d&d the game for lazy characters?

1 mile to Kobold lair.

1.5 miles to the Keep.

I thought the theme of Points of Light that things were dispersed in a big partially unknown/unknowable world?

A simple solution would to multiply the distances by 10 or 20. If an ordinary person like me can march 40 miles in a day (not recently but I can) then heroes can do that too, right! :)

Also the town map looks assembled from stock town bits rather a town being drawn.

Clearly, the problem is that they mixed up the map scales between Eberron and Keep on the Shadowfell.

--G
 

2eBladeSinger

First Post
IMO

The name Winterhaven originated literally – the farmers would gather in the lee of its walls each winter. Now that the area is more established, not everyone shelters there each winter (it’s far too populated now) but the walls are maintained as a defense against a major catastrophe.
The population of Winterhaven takes into consideration the outlying areas.
The population ‘within the walls’ is about 120
The population just outside the walls (various craftsmen, laborers, not farmers) is about 240
The remaining population are farmers living up to six miles away from the walls.
The area is not literally six miles square, it avoids the Kobold camp and stretches to the west and into the north hills more than it does southeasterly
The average Winterhavenite is better able to defend himself than a medieval peasant – he knows how to use a spear or maybe a sword.
Each outlying farm has a kind of ‘beacon of Gondor’ to warn others of danger and to call for help.
 

Harshax

First Post
thalmin said:
1. The village withdrew inside the walls, the walls were not built to contain the village.
2. Hostile activity in the area has only recently changed (it's in the module.)
3. Hostile activity doesn't have to mean attempted genocide. A thief doesn't usually want to destroy the store/victim, just take some stuff.
4. It isn't easy to move a whole village, especially if you must travel through the wilderness (it's safer in here than out there. Even if I live outside the walls, I can run inside if there is real trouble.)

Now that's offers simulationists something to sink there teeth into. Imagine if you will 977 refuges crowding the streets and parade deck of the castle. You are tasked with helping reclaim various settlements so the peasants can starting growing grain again.
 

Mondbuchstaben

First Post
Ghaerdon Fain said:
LOL I was gonna say something when I saw the numbers but was just too darn shy. I think the numbers aren't reflective of the buildings mentioned. No matter how we justify the merchants and their helpers, 50 ppl in a building is alot and would need to be massive. I could believe it if the outskirts had many many more buildings.
I am a bit surprised that no one has mentioned a computer game influence yet. I mean, 4e has been accused of trying to lure MMORPG gamers over to p&p RPGs by catering to their aesthetics, and here we have a visual cue if there ever was one.

Compare Winterhaven to Anvil from The Elder Scrolls IV - Oblivion:

75482424e4e963f.jpg
444175046.jpg


city_anvil.jpg



But then, this kind of map simplification has been used by AD&D players before.

During the nineties there used to be AD&D events at Gen Con which were played out in an utterly awesome model city called, Lüdinn.

LudinnCityModel.jpg


From the setting booklet the organisers sold at their event it was clear that the city ought to be bigger than the model implied, although the map printed in it followed the layout of the model.
 

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