WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏

[amerigoV]

Interesting analysis, amerigoV.

Bullgrit

Thanks!

Here is the wording from the 3.5 update to find the poem:

Characters standing at the north end of the corridor who succeed on a DC 20 Spot check see that the floor mosaic hides barely noticeable runes: a message in Common. It says the following:

That is much easier than the original module (as noted from earlier in the thread). So a rogue that happens to look over the mosaics at the entrance (Skill Points plus Stat ~14 range) has a 6/20 chance (or 100% chance, if Take 10) to see the runes and piece them together. I say easier as most likely Players would describe they were looking around, at the floor, etc to trigger the roll where as 1e the wording sound more like a definitive action ("I look at the floor for patterns and will go down the hall as needed"). That tells me that Bruce Cordell (who did the 3.5 update) recognized that the poem is vital to the "enjoyment" of the module. Anyone have the 4e update wording?

Reviewing this does bring back my memory of one our players finding and following the trail of runes.

 

[pemerton]

I think you have an interesting idea. But the poem is so very hard to find. Why hide it, (requiring 130' of persistent, careful study, over several poison-spike-pit traps), if it is intended to be a integral driver?

My answer to this is that it is a feature of the era, that tends to produce compromised design.

An analogy: on a number of recent "problem player" threads, some posters have suggested that (i) the problem player might be encouraged to be less troublesome if s/he had information XYZ, and therefore (ii) the GM should permit an INT or WIS check to learn XYZ.

My response to these suggestions is, if the information is so worthwhile getting into the hands of that player, then why make it hostage to a d20 roll. The GM should just tell them XYZ!

But the intuition that many feel, to have an INT or WIS check, is still there. I think it comes in part from a simulationist mentality - the GM can't tell the player something unless it correlates to some successful process of reasoning in the fiction, which would be modelled by the successful stat check - and in part from a gamist mentality - the GM shouldn't be giving the players anything worthwhile for free. They have to earn it, if only by being lucky.

These habits of thought are deeply ingrained in many, and go back to the roots of the game. I suspect that similar ways of thinking may underlie the ToH's presentation of the poem. The more modern approach - if it will enhance the game for the players to know it, then just tell them (and if necessary, contrive the fiction to make sure the PCs know too) - just wasn't around back then.

 

[jonesy]

That tells me that Bruce Cordell (who did the 3.5 update) recognized that the poem is vital to the "enjoyment" of the module. Anyone have the 4e update wording?

The 4E version is very different. Suffice to say that it's not there.

Spoiler

There are several tombs in the 4E version. The original is now called The Abandoned Tomb, and ravaged. It is played with in the module with rumours of how dangerous it is, only for the characters to finally discover how little of it remains. It's just one small step in the module.

Edit: the 4E module talks a lot about how the DM should provide numerous different ways of both finding and solving things, at one point even saying that if the players really can't figure one out he should allow it to be solved by a history check. As written, it seems to me that finding things is a lot harder there than solving things.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=10324]jonesy[/MENTION], are you talking about the 4e supermodule written by Ari Marmell, or the 4e reissue of the original tomb, which I think was a special for RPGA members or something similar.

 

[jonesy]

[MENTION=10324]jonesy[/MENTION], are you talking about the 4e supermodule written by Ari Marmell, or the 4e reissue of the original tomb, which I think was a special for RPGA members or something similar.

The supermodule. I didn't even know there was a reissue.

 

[FoxWander]

I have to agree with amerigoV about the poem. Without it the Tomb is just a deathtrap that gives player's little incentive to press on to the end. I've yet to hear of a party that didn't find the poem- an most of them either try to follow it like a guide or at least turn to it when they get stuck.

I don't think that it's merely useful after the fact either. There are several points where it shows the way to go, instead of just the way you should've gone. In the original module that in itself was suspicious and reason enough not to trust it. (Why would the creator of this killer dungeon make a guide to solving it?) But, I think the answer is that the actual creator (Gary) realized just what amerigoV points out- the players would need something to goad them on. In the 2nd edition Return to the Tomb the poem was given an EXCELLENT reason for existing in the context of the game world , the dungeon, and Acererack's endgame (which I won't mention here for those few who haven't tried that version). But in the original version it only makes sense in a meta-game way.

 

[Jhaelen]

I don't have my books, but if Dimension Door doesn't require line of sight, a gutsy wizard could just zap past the Stone Gate.

Hmm. When I ran the module I ruled that teleportation magic of any kind didn't work within the tomb. I did this since teleportation was explained as utilizing the astral plane, i.e. I thought it was similar to the following:

Anybody poking around the Tomb in Astral or Ethereal form has a 1 in 6 chance of attracting a Type I - IV demon. For folks who played a lot of 1E, how rough will an encounter with a Type IV Demon be for a 10th to 14th level party? Is it worth going into the Border Ethereal for some quick scouting?

So, the first time a pc tried to teleport somewhere, the spell was interrupted midway and the pc found himself drifting in the astral plane. Then I started rolling for random encounters, while the others tried to stage a rescue. Naturally, they didn't make it in time as the pc attracted the attention of a demon...

Was teleporting around a common approach of groups that managed to get through the tomb successfully?

 

[FoxWander]

Was teleporting around a common approach of groups that managed to get through the tomb successfully?

Well, after the near-disastrous success of our rock-to-mud trick* at the gate we used stone shape and polymorphing into an ankheg (for burrowing) to bypass stuff.

As I said, we went thru the Tomb as part of Return to... so the astral demons are a lot more active in policing the area. We found out about them somehow and avoided any planar travel or monster summoning within the Tomb.


* the area for RtM is HUGE- we wound up flooding the entire hallway after the gate and had a heck of time cleaning up so we could move on

 

[jmucchiello]

Love the thread. Um.. Bump?

 

[Stoat]

Love the thread. Um.. Bump?

Dwarf Fortress is a Hell of a drug. Strike the Earth! But anyway . . .

Area 16. Locked Oaken Door

If you miss the secret door hidden at the bottom of the pit trap, you'll find yourself in a long, ten-foot wide hallway that turns and runs north. There are no branches or intersections, but there is a door at the far end.

The door is heavily bound with iron bands, "and there are several locks apparent." If anybody listens, they cn hear far-off music and happy singing coming from the other side. Acererak has organized a party at Schist table!

The door is almost impossible to get through. "No forcing or knock spells will open it." Those locks that were apparent? The module doesn't say anything else about them. Instead, the PC's have to either Disintegrate the door or else chop it to pieces to get to the other side. When that happens, the music stops and you hear the sound of all those happy people running off. Maybe you should follow them!

This is all an enormous screwjob. The noises are just an Audible Glamer. The hallway is a gigantic counterbalanced teeter-totter. It only takes one PC to throw off the balance. When that happens, the hallway starts tipping forward and the DM should start counting to 5. PC's that don't turn around and run get dropped into hot lava. Strike the Earth!

IMO: Similar to Area 4, this trap (theoretically) punishes the PC's for being curious and going off the the path. I don't see any specific clue or warning about its danger.

On the other hand, even though this is a death trap, I don't think it's very deadly. The trigger is only 20 to 30 feet from the safety, and a quick acting PC will be able to turn around and run back pretty easily. Plus, it only takes the weight of one PC to overbalance the hallway. If somebody is scouting ahead, even a little, they'll be in trouble but the rest of the party will be safe.

I've run traps like this. There's a doozy in one of the Grimtooth books. Acererak should have put the fulcrum farther away, and balanced it so it took two or three PC's to set the trap off. As it is, he just wasted a perfectly valuable nigh-indestructable door.