Wisdom to AC ... twice?

[eamon]

Still, that's a rationale I thought up in two seconds. Someone can probably think of a better one. My basic point is this: why should your interpretation of the rules depend on the completely unrelated factor of whether or not you happen to be able to think up a good rationalization?

The two factors are not unrelated. You're presumably using the D&D rules because you enjoy fantasy role-playing - the ruleset serves to provide a clear-cut basis for what flies and what does not - in a fantasy setting. Your imagination is thus key to the selection of the rules, not vice-versa.

Of course, a certain about of arbitrariness is unavoidable, and that's actually part of the reason why you use rules - you're trying to find a common ground and be consistent in your interpretations. That implies that even more so than normally, when the rules make arbitrary decisions it's imperative they're consistent.

Finally, the rules support the DM in the role of the arbiter. They should avoid conflict and where possible work the way expected - in other words, the consequences of the rules should be a setting and a mechanic which works like your mental model of it. If a rule is arbitrary, it better be consistent and reasonable - but if a rule is surprising and actually works contrary to your expectations, it's a bad rule.

Considering these three guiding principles, and the fact that natural text is not precise and the semantic meaning of the rules cannot be derived unambiguously, when a rule is unclear, it's best to interprete it in such a fashion as to speak to the imagination, remain self-consistent with the rest of the rule set, and to avoid illogical, surprising rules.

So, given your imagination, the rest of the rule set, and your fellow players, which interpretation is better - that swordsages retain their Wisdom armor bonus to AC when unarmored, or that they do not? It's not unambiguously derivable from the text, so you'll need to make a choice.

 

[Kat']

The issue with unarmored swordsages has been discuted in Wizard's FAQ, they said the Wisdom bonus applies and the book was poorly formulated, not reflecting the intent.

Nevertheless, Monk's and Swordsage's Wis bonus to AC do not stack, as it specifically says so in the class ability description... If you want Wis to AC twice, throw in a Saint template from BoED.

 

[glass]

That... has to be a typo. Why on earth would it work in light armor but not in no armor? Especially when there's a no-armor class variant suggested right there in the writeup?

I have always read that as light or lighter. Weird.

Anyway, even aside from that point I'd agree that they don't stack.

Even more fundamantally, there is no 'they'.

You add your Wisdom bonus, or you don't. For stacking to be possible there would have to be a second bonus for it to stack with and there isn't.


glass.

 

[lottrbacchus]

Even more fundamantally, there is no 'they'.

You add your Wisdom bonus, or you don't. For stacking to be possible there would have to be a second bonus for it to stack with and there isn't.


glass.

Hi glass and everyone. What I find interesting about message boards is that I often wonder about seeming miscommunication. This thread already has seen one poster talk about optimizing light armor for a bonus (for which you would have to HAVE light armor) which seems to have been missed by other posters.

Now, I can't quite make out if you mean there can't be 'they' because the two bonuses the OP was wondering about are the same, or if this thread has gone a bit off the rails, or if you were being somewhat sarcastic, or what.

At any rate, it seems settled that there is no double wisdom bonus here, and my bad mood from a bad day has been somewhat alleviated from reading the board.

Good work all!

 

[Slaved]

An unarmored sword sage can remain unarmored and gain benefit from the ability - that makes the most sense, and doesn't contradict the text.

How does it not contradict the text? The text says Light Armor specifically!

Also the Monk's AC Bonus and the Swordsage's AC Bonus may have the same name but they are not the same ability. Aside from working under different conditions the Monk's AC Bonus scales with level while the Swordsage's does not.

So they each work in slightly different ways under slightly different circumstances. Since those circumstances never align there is no need to worry about whether or not they would stack. But saying that if they could somehow be used at the same time they would not stack because they are the same ability is incorrect, they are not the same ability, they are merely very similar.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So they each work in slightly different ways under slightly different circumstances. Since those circumstances never align there is no need to worry about whether or not they would stack. But saying that if they could somehow be used at the same time they would not stack because they are the same ability is incorrect, they are not the same ability, they are merely very similar.

Glass's point:

A character has a Wisdom bonus. He normally does not add this bonus to his AC.

An unarmored monk has the ability to add his Wisdom bonus to his AC.

A lightly-armored swordsage has the ability to add his Wisdom bonus to his AC.

A multiclassed monk/swordsage who is somehow both armored and unarmored has the ability to add his Wisdom bonus to AC, and this ability derives from two different sources.

Either his Wisdom bonus is added to his AC, or it is not... but since it is only one bonus, it is only counted once no matter how many sources you receive that ability from.

Now, this is different to RangerWickett's reading above, where "Wisdom bonus" is a named bonus. Under that reading, the two abilities both allow you to add a different Wisdom bonus to AC, but since the bonus is named, it does not stack. Under RangerWickett's reading, "Add Wisdom bonus to AC" and "Add Wisdom bonus to AC as a deflection bonus" results in twice the improvement, since "Wisdom" and "deflection" are two different named bonuses. I'm assuming glass would still not permit them to stack, since it is still the single Wisdom bonus being added in both cases; it's just that one of the abilities that permits it to be added also reassigns its type, which would prevent it stacking with any other deflection bonus.

Then, of course, there is also the Divine Grace type of bonus - "a bonus equal to the paladin's Charisma bonus". I assume both RangerWickett and glass would allow such a bonus to stack, since it is an unnamed bonus, and while it is equal to the Charisma bonus, it is not, in fact, the Charisma bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Slaved]

You are mixing and matching but I will answer anyway.

The abilities are applied under different conditions.
The abilities have a different set of bonuses.

If a character had two different feats which both granted a +2 bonus to the same skill and another +2 bonus to seperate skills I think that everyone would say that the character gained a +4 bonus in that skill.

Since the Wisdom bonus is not named and they are different abilities I do not see why they would not stack.

Here are the two abilities again.

Originally Posted by Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

Swordsages add their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class while the Monk adds their Wisdom bonus to their Armor Class. So the wording on the abilities is also different.

If a character could find a way to both be Unarmored and wearing Light armor at the same time I would be hard pressed to tell them that they could not use both abilities.

 

[lottrbacchus]

You are mixing and matching but I will answer anyway.

If a character could find a way to both be Unarmored and wearing Light armor at the same time I would be hard pressed to tell them that they could not use both abilities.

Fear not!!!! Even though this thread has reached the bizzaro-hypothetical realm of 'what would happen if two mutually exclusive states existed for a character on an ongoing basis' (after all, that is what DMs and magic are for), we STILL have the WotC coming to the rescue with their answer that the two bonuses DO NOT STACK in this case. No hard-pressing needed in this case/non-case.

 

[Hyperfist]

Wow....this was already resolved in one of the ask the sage things on WOTC. Basically those bonuses don't stack. They are derived from the same place. If you don't like it. House Rule. But if you are following, WOTC rules...Sage ruled on it.

Check the site. You should be able to find it.

I know...I was attempting to do that. But unfortunately, that ruling kept me from doing it.

 

[Darklone]

Sooo ... "Much Ado about Nothing" ...