Wisdom to AC ... twice?

[Hypersmurf]

If a character had two different feats which both granted a +2 bonus to the same skill and another +2 bonus to seperate skills I think that everyone would say that the character gained a +4 bonus in that skill.

That's right.

But consider the Defending magic weapon special ability, which allows you to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus as an unnamed bonus to AC. Now let's posit a hypothetical "Resisting" magic weapon special ability, which allows you to transfer some or all of the weapon's enhancement bonus as an unnamed bonus to saves.

If I have a +5 Defending Resisting longsword, can I transfer +4 to AC and +4 to saves in the same round?

Since the Wisdom bonus is not named and they are different abilities I do not see why they would not stack.

Firstly, there's dispute as to whether or not the "Wisdom bonus" is unnamed - it's a bonus that is defined by a word that appears in front of it. (This is where RangerWickett is coming from, I believe.)

Secondly, you're saying that if someone has a +4 Wisdom bonus, then "add your Wisdom bonus to AC" actually means "create an unnamed bonus to AC that's the same size as your Wisdom bonus, and add that to AC". In this case, three abilities will sum to +12, because you're creating three different unnamed bonuses, each of +4. Glass is saying that "add your Wisdom bonus to AC" means "Your Wisdom bonus can be included in that calculation of AC". Three abilities all give you the same permission - you can include your Wisdom bonus when calculating AC. So with permission from three sources, you add +4 to AC.

Swordsages add their Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class while the Monk adds their Wisdom bonus to their Armor Class. So the wording on the abilities is also different.

The wording is different, but is it mechanically different? As long as the number is positive, your Wisdom modifier is a bonus... does "Add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to AC", when that modifier is positive, actually mean something other than "Add your Wisdom bonus to AC"? Contrast with "Add a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier", which unambiguously creates a separate modifier, with "Add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus", which does not - it's n ot a different bonus being added... it is still your Wisdom bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Slaved]

So they are different abilities with different effects and use different wordings but they do not stack even though under other circumstances you allow other effects with the same type of circumstances to stack.

I suppose you could have saved time by just saying that you arbitrarily decided that they do not stack and are happy with it.

 

[lottrbacchus]

Wow....this was already resolved in one of the ask the sage things on WOTC. Basically those bonuses don't stack. They are derived from the same place. If you don't like it. House Rule. But if you are following, WOTC rules...Sage ruled on it.

Check the site. You should be able to find it.

I know...I was attempting to do that. But unfortunately, that ruling kept me from doing it.

Considering I posted a WotC link at the very start of this thread saying they don't stack, one would hope that one should be able to find it. Though I still find the ongoing debate to be enlightening on various ways to interpret the rules.

 

[Jack Simth]

Thanks you two. I was thinking DAMN the monk has a +6 Wis ... he gets a +12 to AC at level 9?!?

Thanks for clearing that up.

Compare to the Cleric with Fullplate (+8 AC) and a Large Steel Shield (+2 AC) casting Magic Vestments on both. At 9th, that's +2 each - so +8 Armor, +2 Armor Enhancement, +2 Shield, +2 Shield Enhancement, for +14.

Okay, the Monk/Swordsage can also pick up Bracers of Armor and such... but really, the Cleric is a Full caster; that won't hurt much. For that matter, the Cleric can skip the armor, buy a Monk's Belt, and use Clerical AC buffs to do something very similar.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So they are different abilities with different effects and use different wordings but they do not stack even though under other circumstances you allow other effects with the same type of circumstances to stack.

Hmm? I explained a reading that says that two abilities from different sources that both grant you permission to do something doesn't mean that you double the effect of that something.

If someone gains the ability to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike from two different abilities, that doesn't mean he deals double damage.

If someone gains the ability to add his Wisdom bonus to his AC from two different sources, that doesn't mean he adds double the bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Firstly, there's dispute as to whether or not the "Wisdom bonus" is unnamed - it's a bonus that is defined by a word that appears in front of it. (This is where RangerWickett is coming from, I believe.)

I don't see RW in this thread, and in your posts he seems to have the same position as me, so I think you mean me


As for others who wants to know how to get the Monk and Swordsage bonuses at the same time (even though they still don't stack), the Shou Disciple PrC allows the Monk bonuses to apply in either Light Armour or Unarmoured. So it is theoretically possible.

 

[Slaved]

Hmm? I explained a reading that says that two abilities from different sources that both grant you permission to do something doesn't mean that you double the effect of that something.

If someone gains the ability to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike from two different abilities, that doesn't mean he deals double damage.

If someone gains the ability to add his Wisdom bonus to his AC from two different sources, that doesn't mean he adds double the bonus.

-Hyp.

Except your explination is contradictory. It is also incorrect in the very basic sense since the abilities are not the same. In fact your comment about Divine Grace shows that you are accepting the contradictory nature of your own arguement and not batting an eye!

Also your examples here are no where near the same. Come on now, Unarmed Strike damage lethality abilities? I would assume you could come up with a better example in your sleep!

The abilities work in different ways and have sufficiently different wordings that other abilities with similar different wordings you have said they would stack but for some reason you will not allow the same for these abilities. Very strange.

 

[RigaMortus2]

@Slaved:

Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

A 1st level Rogue, who has +1d6 sneak attack, is flanking an opponent that is also flat-footed (thus, do not have Dex to AC). Does the Rogue get to apply +1d6 sneak attack damage twice? Once for the opponent being flanked, and once for the opponent being denied their Dex bonus to AC?

Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

If you are flanking a Large creature with two of your friends (you are on one side of the large creature, you friends are on the opposite side of the large creature), do you get a +4 flanking bonus to hit the Large creature? Since you are effectively flanking it twice (once for each ally)?

 

[glass]

Since the Wisdom bonus is not named and they are different abilities I do not see why they would not stack.

At the risk of repeating myself (and Hyp's excellent summary), what 'they'?

Lets say your Wisdom is 14, that means your wisdom bonus is +2 which your monk character can add to his AC. Now your character takes a couple of levels of swordsage (houseruled to work when unarmoured). What bonus does he add now?

EDIT: Just like the sneak-attack situation. Thanks RM2.


glass.

 

[glass]

Wow....this was already resolved in one of the ask the sage things on WOTC.

Some of us don't consider the FAQ/Sage to resolve anything, because it is subservient to the actual text of the rules.


glass.