Wisdom???

[Thornir Alekeg]

Imho, Wisdom is pretty well-defined, it's just badly named _and_ used for some things that don't really relate to Wisdom at all.

Just calling it perception goes a long way of clearing things up. I don't see why it's also used to measure willpower. Imho, that's more a function of Charisma.

In other words, I think Charisma is really the ability that isn't well defined.

I think willpower is based better on Wisdom than Charisma, if you take willpower to be self-control, as I do.

Charisma is primarily projected outward on others. Wisdom is generally internal.

Somebody who is very charismatic can influence others easily, but that does not necessarily mean they are not themselves susceptible to a very charismatic person. A high Wisdom allows the character to perceive the influence others are projecting on them and to resist that influence (I'm wise to your ploys).

3.5 WIS skills
Spot
Listen
Survival
Profession
Heal
Sense Motive

4e adds:
Dungeoneering

Of the list, the only one I really have an issue with is Profession - too big a grouping to drop under one stat. Survival, Heal and Dungeoneering are on the edge - a good argument could be made that both INT and WIS are factors in those skills, but the D&D standard has been a to use a single stat, so I think WIS is the more appropriate choice from the intuitive/perception standpoint for Survival and Dungeoneering.

I would shift Heal more towards INT. While the "wisewoman" may have been a good healer, it was more application of accumulated knowledge (i.e. making poultices, using herbs etc.) than just perception of the illness or intuition of what to do (unless you're Gregory House, maybe).

 

[DdraigGoch]

Of the list, the only one I really have an issue with is Profession - too big a grouping to drop under one stat. Survival, Heal and Dungeoneering are on the edge - a good argument could be made that both INT and WIS are factors in those skills, but the D&D standard has been a to use a single stat, so I think WIS is the more appropriate choice from the intuitive/perception standpoint for Survival and Dungeoneering.

As a bushcraft/naturalist nerd with actual field experience I just wanted to comment on "survival". Distinguishing between nature knowledge and survival certainly helps (in comparison to the "nature" skill) but I think survival is probably the most broad skill in the game. It covers everything from perception (FINDING tracks, bird behavior, hazards), to reasoning (UNDERSTANDING tracks, route creation, camp location, trapping), to complex crafting skills (trap building, tool building, etc), to complex physical skills (hunting, navigating challenging terrain). Once you roll it up with nature knowledge (4e Nature skill) it is truly an expansive field.
I am actually sympathetic to situation the designers face. Normal DnD isn't built with the kind of challenges that justify breaking it down into more reasonable chunks or that would encourage a player to spend all his/her skills on it (though such a game would be very sexy). I think it is pretty crazy to try and claim that such a range of tasks is covered by wisdom... not that there is really a better option out of the attributes. Yeah... I am ranting now so I am going to stop.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That's easy.

Wisdom is my dump stat.


RC

 

[Pseudopsyche]

My take on wisdom has been heavily influenced by getting a PhD in machine learning. For me, intelligence corresponds to what computers are good at: memorization and inference. Wisdom corresponds to what computers are bad at: perception and insight. (BTW, Charisma corresponds to what computers completely lack.)

Technically, the hardest problems in artificial intelligence are what I would call problems in developing artificial wisdom. In machine learning in particular, we have several algorithms for classifying, clustering, etc. given data in a certain representation. We have very little progress on how to determine what the right representation or data is.

 

[Sadrik]

My take on wisdom has been heavily influenced by getting a PhD in machine learning. For me, intelligence corresponds to what computers are good at: memorization and inference. Wisdom corresponds to what computers are bad at: perception and insight. (BTW, Charisma corresponds to what computers completely lack.)

Technically, the hardest problems in artificial intelligence are what I would call problems in developing artificial wisdom. In machine learning in particular, we have several algorithms for classifying, clustering, etc. given data in a certain representation. We have very little progress on how to determine what the right representation or data is.

Conceptually this is interesting. However, I think that machines are pretty good at perception. Searching for a file generally works when you use a search command and facial recognition software and other types of high tech stuff generally work when all the parameters are met. I say "generally" in both cases, but I mean unless there is an error they always work. Basically, they don't gloss over anything like a mind can do.

The problem is that all of that stuff has to be programmed. So making inferences (soundly drawing decisions from unknown or uncertain variables) is where a machine stumbles, it can only do what a program is programmed to do. Totally agree on the CHA. I don't have a PhD in AI but I have a degree in programming.

Where do you think will save fits into a machine?

---

Also, how could I have forgotten to mention this one earlier, often WIS is described as sanity. Low WIS means more insane.

 

[AngryMojo]

Intelligence is how smart you are.

Wisdom is how dumb you aren't.

 

[aboyd]

Intelligence is what you know. Wisdom is how you apply it. I've never had a problem with this, and neither have my players. I guess I should be grateful.

 

[arscott]

Of the list, the only one I really have an issue with is Profession - too big a grouping to drop under one stat. Survival, Heal and Dungeoneering are on the edge - a good argument could be made that both INT and WIS are factors in those skills, but the D&D standard has been a to use a single stat, so I think WIS is the more appropriate choice from the intuitive/perception standpoint for Survival and Dungeoneering.

I would shift Heal more towards INT. While the "wisewoman" may have been a good healer, it was more application of accumulated knowledge (i.e. making poultices, using herbs etc.) than just perception of the illness or intuition of what to do (unless you're Gregory House, maybe).

It's clear to me that Heal is a Wis-based skill only because they wanted clerics to be better at it. Take a look at Alternity--which uses the same six stats (albeit with Wisdom and Charisma renamed as Will and Personality). Skill/Ability dependencies match closely, with the major exception of healing, which is Int-based.

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

Wisdom is a horrible name for a core Attribute in any game... just about everything it links to, with the real exception of Will Defense/Saves, is Perception related skills and talents... It should be renamed to either Perception, or Insight, or Senses or something else, but Wisdom is the crappiest name ever.

Charisma should also be renamed. As a attribute name, it doesn't quite make sense, but you rename it Presence, or Personality, now those are good names that actually make freaking sense. But Charisma, that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and a lot of people are confused by it. Try explaining Charisma to somebody, then try explaining Presence to that same person, they'll understand Presence everytime. Same for Wisdom...

Rename Wisdom Perception, and now everybody can figure what that means.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Wisdom is a horrible name for a core Attribute in any game... (. . .) It should be renamed to either Perception, or Insight, or Senses or something else

Charisma should also be renamed. As a attribute name, it doesn't quite make sense, but you rename it Presence, or Personality, now those are good names that actually make freaking sense.

OMG, I getz 2 be teh ninja 2deh!

Simple 'fix' that might align well with where (it seems) you're coming from:

Strength, Dexterity/Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Perception/Awareness (replaces Wisdom), Willpower/Presence (replaces Charisma). Actual words used might, of course, vary.