Neonchameleon
Legend
This is a lie. Get it LIE. And I've called people out on this several times. Either produce a quote in context that says - D&D 5e cannot contain a mechanic X even if I would be able to remove it. I have said if I can't remove it for my games then it is problematic. That is miles different.
On re-reading your posts, you are right. My apologies.
Your talking about games that WOTC dreams sales wise of returning to one day. 4e's greatest claim to fame was creating a cottage industry of 3e clones.
The games that WotC dream to returning to sales wise with D&D aren't 3.0. They are 1e and the Red Box. Both written for pawn stance - and pretty much the opposite of what you are saying they should do. But in all three cases D&D caught the zeitgeist - I believe that the OGL was an extremely good thing for the sales of D&D because it provided a mountain of free advertising and word of mouth among the geek crowd.
The earlier editions could be played either way. 4e could be played one way.
You say that as if it is true. It isn't. You can only play 4e one way. I find the 4e powers structure far more immersionist than spam-play. I'll go into why below.
I keep repeating and you keep not listening. That is the common theme I see across those who don't understand dissociative mechanics.
No. You keep repeating. We keep rebutting - as here - and you keep ignoring that you do not have a single unrefuted point on the table or that when your points are countered, you should defend them.
If as a player I say - I swing my sword and then I roll to see if my sword hits then that is very correlative. I could also say that I attack the enemy oer the course of one minute seeking for a key opening and stab when the chance arises. In either case my player is thinking exactly what my character is thinking.
And this is why, to me, your supposed immersion fails. You are not thinking the way either I do or anyone else I have spoken to does except at the most superficial level possible - at this level of zoom, the wizard would be saying "I cast an evocation to kill him".
When I have a sword in my hand and am in the middle of combat I'm not thinking about what I want to do. I'm thinking about how. The what is really incredibly obvious. I'm thinking about where everyone is, and how I can exploit that. I'm looking for openings which may or may not be there. Which is precisely the way it works in 4e - and not at all the way it works in AD&D. With a sword in my hand I'm looking for opportunities, I'm seeing them, I'm exploiting them, and I don't have time to worry about what isn't there. With AEDU I'm looking forn opportunities, I'm seeing them, I'm exploiting them. With action-spam I'm not looking for opportunities, I'm choosing between options that are always there. I therefore find this disassociative because it means that limited and fleeting opportunities don't exist.
And as for powers being limited use and this not being a problem in character, even in chess one of the differences between Grand Masters and beginners is that good players literally do not see the bad moves on the board. They subconsciously notice and discard them. Warriors, likewise. They practice chunking and especially chunking in motor learning (see also). 4e martial powers are excellently chunked and without limited use powers I'm not looking for fleeting and semi-fleeting opportunities.
Limited use player controlled tactical powers: An aid to tactical play, an aid to narrative play, and an aid to immersion. (This, incidently, is where 13th Age goes wrong - the riders are chosen after the dice is rolled).
This, of course, doesn't mean that AEDU is the only way. Merely that limited availability powers are essential for fighters to be immersive and associated at a tactical level. (Note: Limited availability isn't the same as limited use. You could, for instance, borrow the Crusader mechanic where only some of the standard chunks/katas/combinations/powers your character uses are available at any time but which ones are refreshes every few rounds - and fall back on the basic attack if nothing presents itself).
So yeah, I get what you mean by dissassociation. And that only some editions of D&D allow you to match what's going on in a warrior's head in combat. Those the two I know about are 3.5: Book of Nine Swords, and 4e.
On the other hand - if as a player I say - right now at this moment is when I am going to find an opening in the enemies defenses so I can make my special thrusting attack - then that is dissociative.
And completely not the way I do it. I see what I can do. I respond. I do it. That is wholly and completely the way I think both playing 4e and when I have a sword in my hand. That you find it dissassociative is, to me, merely an indication that you are not as immersed as you think.
If I have a finite number of manuevers that are finite for game balance reasons and in reality are finite in the fictional world then I have issue.
Why? In character I don't know those limitations. I only see the options that are there. The ones laid out by the power cards.
So for me I need a game that at least offers a mode of play that is without plot coupons.
Actually succeeding at immersion and chunking what you can do works. Which means that every class in 4e is associated if you avoid one or two powers (Come And Get It springs to mind).
I find level advancement and xp as something we handle outside the game. Characters do not think about it at all.
I believe that's a contradiction to what you said earlier where you mentioned your spell levels have names. Characters think about spell levels. Therefore they think about levels.
I haven't played those games so can't comment.
Try some of them. They do what you claim to do from D&D a lot better.