Wizard and spellbooks

[Majoru Oakheart]

Aha, we finally have the issue brought up in the wild.

I've been looking for a good answer to this.

So far, from a direct reading of the rules this appears to be how it works:

1) You get 2(or 3 with the feat) daily spells whenever you'd gain a daily spell

2) At level 15, you don't gain a daily spell, you instead are given the chance to retrain an old spell for a 15th level one

3) When you retrain, you remove the old spell from your spellbook

4) You can prepare a number of spells equal to the standard number you can cast per day. You can't prepare the same spell twice.

Which leaves us with some questions:

1) When you get the ability to swap a lower level spell for a higher level one, does that allow(or require) you swap ALL of your spells at that level for an equal amount of the new level?

2) How many spells can you cast per day? Nowhere in the book does it specify this. The book lists how many spells you can KNOW many times, but never how many you can USE per day.

3) If we assume the number of dailies known in the table on page 29 is also supposed to be the number of spells you can use per day, then is there any restriction on only preparing one of a particular level? If you know 3 15th level dailies at level 15, can you prepare all of your spells as 15th level powers?

4) If you are only able to swap ONE power at 15th level, and it vanishes from your book, does this now become a level that you gain new powers in, thereby triggering your ability to get more than one daily? This would mean that at 15th level, if you had Expanded Spellbook, that you would be trading 1 1st level power for 3 15th level powers.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

When you choose a higher level power to replace a lower level, it's because the lower level power is outmoded. It doesn't do as much damage, has a smaller area of effect, inflicts an inferior status effect, or whatever. I don't think of it as "forgetting" an old spell so much as upgrading and updating it.

 

[Zsig]

Ok, I fear this post is going to get a bit long, my apologies for that.

I've been comparing stuff regarding the spellbook and some things ocurred to me. I'll post what happens.

Keep in mind that the following assumes that a higher lvl power is better than a lower level one, and as such, when the opportunity for replacement arrives you'll get the "better" option (which means, the high level one).

This is somewhat the "power" progression for a general class:
lvl 1 = enc (1) / daily (1)
lvl 2 = (1 utility)
lvl 3 = enc (1),(3) / daily (1)
lvl 5 = enc (1),(3) / daily (1),(5)
lvl 6 = (+1 utility)
lvl 7 = enc (1),(3),(7) / daily (1),(5)
lvl 9 = enc (1),(3),(7) / daily (1),(5),(9)
lvl 10 = (+1 utility)
lvl 11 = enc (1),(3),(7),(11*) / daily (1),(5),(9)
lvl 12 = (+1 utility*)
lvl 13 = enc (3),(7),(11*),(13) / daily (1),(5),(9)
lvl 15 = enc (3),(7),(11*),(13) / daily (5),(9),(15)
lvl 16 = (+1 utility)
lvl 17 = enc (7),(11*),(13),(17) / daily (5),(9),(15)
lvl 19 = enc (7),(11*),(13),(17) / daily (9),(15),(19)
lvl 20 = enc (7),(11*),(13),(17) / daily (9),(15),(19),(20*)
lvl 22 = (+1 utility)
lvl 23 = enc (11*),(13),(17),(23) / daily (9),(15),(19),(20*)
lvl 25 = enc (11*),(13),(17),(23) / daily (15),(19),(20*),(25)
lvl 26 = (+1 utility**)
lvl 27 = enc (13),(17),(23),(27) / daily (15),(19),(20*),(25)
lvl 29 = enc (13),(17),(23),(27) / daily (19),(20*),(25),(29)
Total Utility Powers = 7.
* Indicates a Paragon Power.
** Indicates an Epic Power.
At-Will powers are not accounted as you only get 2 of them on the first level.
In Bold are the changes for each level.

Kinda weird that your paragon Encounter Power get's replaced at lvl 27...

Anyway. Now the Wizard... and his Spellbook. How does it work? There are a few ways it could.

Method A:

• you can cast Daily (and Utility) spells, regardless of it's level, as long as it's not a duplicated spell.
• that each time you learn a new spell you instead get 2 (or 3) spells of that level.
• When you replace (or retrain), you do so on a 1-to-1 basis as each spell is also one power and the feature allows you to replace 1 power (raw)

Following is how the Wizard spellbook would look like (I removed encounter powers for simplicity):
lvl 1 = 1x daily (1),(1)
lvl 2 = (2 utility)
lvl 5 = 2x daily (1),(1),(5),(5)
lvl 6 = (+2 utility)
lvl 9 = 3x daily (1),(1),(5),(5),(9),(9)
lvl 10 = (+2 utility)
lvl 12 = (+1 utility*)
lvl 15 = 3x daily (1),(5),(5),(9),(9),(15)
lvl 16 = (+2 utility)
lvl 19 = 3x daily (5),(5),(9),(9),(15),(19)
lvl 20 = 4x daily (5),(5),(9),(9),(15),(19),(20*)
lvl 22 = (+2 utility)
lvl 25 = 4x daily (5),(9),(9),(15),(19),(20*),(25)
lvl 26 = (+1 utility**)
lvl 29 = 4x daily (9),(9),(15),(19),(20*),(25),(29)

Total Utility Spells = 12 (7 per day/encounter)

This doesn't include the Expanded Spellbook feat.
A few curiosities if this is the actual Method:
-The Wizard in question is capable of using Daily and Utility spells like noone else and is actually overpowered from levels 5-9 (and slightly stronger than the others at level 15)

-Notice that the Spellbook stops being useful after level 9, since you'll no longer be learning new spells, instead you'll just be replacing them.

-Notice that using this Method, the level in which you get the feat Expanded Spellbook makes ALL the difference as it gives you one Daily of each level you know, so if you take it at higher levels you'll get spells from levels you "replaced", if you get it at first level you won't.

Method B

• That each time you get to a level in which you're allowed new Daily/Utility spells you treat the "couple" as a single "entity". This means that, when you replace it (or retrain) you exchange 2 for 2. ie. two 1st level spells becomes two 15th level spells.
• Otherwise, same as Method A.

To not post the whole thing all over again, I'll post only the end result:

lvl 29: 4x dailies (19), (19), (20*), (25), (25), (29), (29)

This way, the spellbook turns out to be useful at each and every level from begining to end. Although, this makes the Spellbook a very powerful feature, and even gamebreaking, as (providing you get the Expanded Spellbook feat) at level 9, you could memorize three 9th level spells while the rest of your group is using one level 1 one level 5 and one lvl 9. And ,imho, this is not how it's supposed to be, the way I see it the spellbook should provide versatility and not "brokenness".

So, this is the way I'll interpret the Spellbook on my campaigns:

Spellbook:
[...]snip[...]
Daily and Utility Spells:Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of each you can use on any given day. Each time you gain a level that let's you select a daily or utility spell, choose two different spells of that level to add to your spellbook. After an extended rest you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can't prepare more than one spell of each given level.

If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spells vanishes from your spellbook and are replaced by the new spells. For example, at level 15 you can replace two 1st level daily spells for two 15th level daily spells.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think there is something intrinsicly wrong about the way abilities work in 4e that we have to work so hard to rationalize it. I agree that the system is easier, and trims down what players can do so that they can decide what to do faster, etc., but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I think part of the reason for the change was also class balance. One topic of constant complaint and debate in 3.x was class balance, particularly with regard to casters, who had many limitted-use/high-power abilities, vs non-casters who tended to have fewer unlimitted-use/mundane abilities.

In those debates the point was made many times that you could have balanced classes, if you made them all the same. I think that's what 4e did. Every class has the same mix of unlimitted/weak and limitted/strong abilities. The names, fluff, and mechanical details vary, but each character starts out able to do a couple of things as much as he wants, a couple of niftier things that'll stand out in each fight, and one very impressive thing once in a while.

And, yes, we're left to rationalize /why/. Many people never liked the 'Vancian' magic-user, and the 4e wizard is, in a way, even more like those of Jack Vance's "Dying Earth" than the old magic-user (the Dying Earth wizards could memorize a spell or two, only the greatest could memorize several), but it did serve as a rationale for limitted-use, very powerful spells.

Skill atrophy is a very poor explanation IMO when your character is constantly using those abilities each day

Where magic doesn't come into it, I think we have to resort to fate, circumstance, chance and luck - more than skill or tiredness or whatever - to explain the limitted use. A fighter can hit /really/ hard once a day, not because he's too tired to do it again or because he forgot how, but because the chance to set up such a major blow just doesn't come along very often. It's like a critical hit that the player - possibly much moreso than the character - can control.

Such things make no sense in a simulation, but, if you're modeling the reality of action movies and fantasy novels, you could do worse. It's artisic liscence, no rationale required.

...

Getting back to the original question, I think a central design concept of 4e is that all classes are 'the same,' when it comes to resource management and the efficacy of thier powers.

Where other classes get a daily power, the wizard gets to prepare one of two (or three) spells. With the exception of being able to pick from that limitted menue each morning, that should work like any other daily power. Thus, when you retrain a spell, you're retraining the dailly power of prepping one of two or three spells, and pick a different two or three spells to choose from. JMHO.

 

[Tervin]

Spellbook:
[...]snip[...]
Daily and Utility Spells:Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of each you can use on any given day. Each time you gain a level that let's you select a daily or utility spell, choose two different spells of that level to add to your spellbook. After an extended rest you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can't prepare more than one spell of each given level.

If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spells vanishes from your spellbook and are replaced by the new spells. For example, at level 15 you can replace two 1st level daily spells for two 15th level daily spells.

The problem you are talking about is something I look forward to WotC sorting out. I agree with your interpretation, both of what the books says, and what it should be saying - with a couple of additions.

1. It should be allowed to swap a higher level spell for a lower one. (For example have level 1, 5, and 5 daily powers instead of 1, 5 and 9 at level 9.)
2. Clarification of what happens with the multiclassing feat that swaps daily powers with one from another class - both swapping from and to the wizard class.

 

[Khaim]

All of the following are my own thoughts, not a claim as to what the rules really are.

1) When you get the ability to swap a lower level spell for a higher level one, does that allow(or require) you swap ALL of your spells at that level for an equal amount of the new level?

It allows but does not require you to swap everything. My reasoning is that you're normally allowed to take lower-level powers, or keep the ones you have, so you should be allowed to do so here. However, the spellbook seems intended to give you a choice of several spells of the appropriate level, so you should also be able to swap into such spells.

2) How many spells can you cast per day? Nowhere in the book does it specify this. The book lists how many spells you can KNOW many times, but never how many you can USE per day.

The same as everyone else: one spell per slot per day. They don't explicitly say so, but it's pretty clear that you have one slot for every level of spells. In other words, you should have the same levels of spells prepared as a warlock of your level knows.

3) If we assume the number of dailies known in the table on page 29 is also supposed to be the number of spells you can use per day, then is there any restriction on only preparing one of a particular level? If you know 3 15th level dailies at level 15, can you prepare all of your spells as 15th level powers?

No. You have one level 15 slot, so you can prepare one level 15 spell.

A different question is: can I prepare two level 9 spells at 15th level, using my 9 slot and my 15 slot? The rules don't seem to cover this at all. Personally, I'd allow it, but the legality is debatable.

4) If you are only able to swap ONE power at 15th level, and it vanishes from your book, does this now become a level that you gain new powers in, thereby triggering your ability to get more than one daily? This would mean that at 15th level, if you had Expanded Spellbook, that you would be trading 1 1st level power for 3 15th level powers.

I'm not sure what you're asking, but I think the answer is either no, or the situation won't come up because your assumption is wrong.

I think the idea is that for each spell slot you have, you should have two spells in your spellbook of that level (or three, with Expanded Spellbook). You can probably trade down spells, but you should never have more than two times the number of spell slots you have. (Again, three times with the feat.)

 

[Khaim]

2. Clarification of what happens with the multiclassing feat that swaps daily powers with one from another class - both swapping from and to the wizard class.

My interpretation would be that trading a wizard power for some other power means you lose that spell slot, and along with it two spells from your spellbook. Again, this follows from the idea that each slot is tied to two spellbook pages: you lose the slot, you lose the pages (the spells on them, I mean).

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It allows but does not require you to swap everything. My reasoning is that you're normally allowed to take lower-level powers, or keep the ones you have, so you should be allowed to do so here. However, the spellbook seems intended to give you a choice of several spells of the appropriate level, so you should also be able to swap into such spells.

Fair enough. I agree that seems to be the way it is intended. However, all of the rules seem to be written from the point of view of every class except wizard. So, it naturally assumes that anyone is planning on swapping the ONE 1st level spell they know for ONE 15th. And it is worded this way. Unfortunately, it doesn't say anything about what happens when you have 3 1st level spells.

If you are allowed to choose how many to swap, then you end up in a weird situation, where you only have ONE 15th level daily and TWO 1st level dailies. So, you either have an extra slot than everyone else(as you can now prepare a spell of 15th as well as all the levels before it) or you don't have a choice of multiple 15th level powers like the book assumes and the 1st level powers are useless.

The same as everyone else: one spell per slot per day. They don't explicitly say so, but it's pretty clear that you have one slot for every level of spells. In other words, you should have the same levels of spells prepared as a warlock of your level knows.

They don't say that at all. They say that you can choose any power up to the highest level available to you and that you can use each power once. So, although unlikely, a Ranger could decide to swap his 1st level power for an extra 9th when he becomes 15th level. He can still use both 9th level dailies each day.

All the table says is "3" for that level. Which is the number of Daily powers known. It just implies that you can use each power you know once. So it doesn't matter if they are all 1st level or spread out amongst the levels, you just simply keep track of each one, whether it is used or not.

No. You have one level 15 slot, so you can prepare one level 15 spell.

As above, spell slots aren't assigned to level. Although, I'm fairly certain that's the way they expected people to read it.

I think the idea is that for each spell slot you have, you should have two spells in your spellbook of that level (or three, with Expanded Spellbook). You can probably trade down spells, but you should never have more than two times the number of spell slots you have. (Again, three times with the feat.)

Here's what I'm looking at:

-You get to 15th
-You don't get new spells
-You can trade lower level spells for 15th
-You trade one of your 1st level spells for a 15th
-You now only have 2 first level spells and 1 15th level
-You can't have those numbers since your feat says that whenever you gain a spell of a level, you gain 3 instead, and you just gained 15th level spells
-The feat/class feature triggers, giving you 2 more 15th level powers without removing any of your 1st level powers.
-Now you have too many spells

So something is wrong about the situation.

If you want to know how I think it is SUPPOSED to be worded, then I think it SHOULD work like this:

-Whenever you swap a spell of a level, you must swap all spells of that level
-You can cast 1 spell of each level you know, with a choice of 2(or 3) spells at each of those levels

But it's not written even remotely like that.

 

[Khaim]

If you are allowed to choose how many to swap, then you end up in a weird situation, where you only have ONE 15th level daily and TWO 1st level dailies. So, you either have an extra slot than everyone else(as you can now prepare a spell of 15th as well as all the levels before it) or you don't have a choice of multiple 15th level powers like the book assumes and the 1st level powers are useless.

I'm not sure what the problem is. Yes, under my interpretation you can have two 1st level dailies and a single 15th level (if you wanted). But your 1st level "slot" has been upgraded to a 15th level slot, so if you want to prepare a 1st level spell, you have to waste one of your higher level slots.

So, although unlikely, a Ranger could decide to swap his 1st level power for an extra 9th when he becomes 15th level. He can still use both 9th level dailies each day.

Sure. What he's doing is using his 15th level slot for a 9th level power. As I said, the book doesn't seem all that clear, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to allow.

As above, spell slots aren't assigned to level. Although, I'm fairly certain that's the way they expected people to read it.

It's the way I'm reading it.

 

[Dees]

Hi, how many spells can a wiz cast?